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  • I posted the question on Rootsweb about how one can tell he belongs in the R1b-Frisian Cluster: how many markers he needs, how far off he can be, etc.

    I have not gotten an answer yet (and maybe I won't), but it was relatively late in the evening when I posted it. I didn't address the question to anyone specifically; I just asked it of the general list audience.

    Some of the markers used by Nordtvedt on his R1b modals chart were not among the 37 I was tested for by FTDNA. Of the first 25 markers, I matched R1b-Frisian exactly on 22 of them. None of the other modals scored that high, although I believe I had 20 or 21 that matched R1b-Norwegian.

    I am wondering how indicative of anything STRS are for R1b, since it is so ubiquitous.

    It seems to me more downstream SNPs are needed, and we need to see how they really break down geographically.

    Comment


    • Stevo, you did get an answer, by J. McEwan:

      http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-06/1149843119

      You are lucky. I've asked them about T2 mt haplogroup and nobody told me anything...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by F.E.C.
        Stevo, you did get an answer, by J. McEwan:

        http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-06/1149843119

        You are lucky. I've asked them about T2 mt haplogroup and nobody told me anything...
        Thanks, Francesco.

        I saw T all over Europe on the mtDNA world map here, if that's of any help.

        Looks like it's in the Middle East and out into Central Asian Russia, as well.

        I'm not sure about T2 specifically, though.

        Comment


        • Thank you very much for the map, Stevo. You're always very kind.

          Originally posted by F.E.C.
          You are lucky. I've asked them about T2 mt haplogroup and nobody told me anything...
          Maybe to draw some attention I should have written Niall the Irish Guy was T2 as well...

          Comment


          • However your 10 mismatches from the Frisian modal seem a lot to me.

            Things start to get interesting for you, too

            Comment


            • Originally posted by F.E.C.
              Stevo, you did get an answer, by J. McEwan:

              http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-06/1149843119

              You are lucky. I've asked them about T2 mt haplogroup and nobody told me anything...
              That was an excellent and very informative answer.

              Apparently I was wrong. My STRs are off from the other guys who are in the Frisian cluster. That shows how much I've got to learn. I seemed to be close to that chart on the first 25 markers, and I wasn't close to any of the others, so I figured that was it.

              No easy solutions for me, I guess.

              John said I appear to be closest to the R1bSTR28 group, but none of them has been Deep SNP tested, and there is currently no known geographic origin for that group. He also said it is possible I may still test S21+, but who knows? I cannot spring for an Ethnoancestry test right now.

              RATS!!!

              More mystery is not my goal!

              I want answers!

              I hope FTDNA comes up with some more downstream markers for R1b.

              This is the story of my experience with genealogy: more questions, more frustration.

              I can look in the mirror and see that I'm a white guy.

              I would like a little more information than that.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                Thank you very much for the map, Stevo. You're always very kind.
                You're welcome.

                Originally posted by F.E.C.
                Maybe to draw some attention I should have written Niall the Irish Guy was T2 as well...
                That probably would have helped!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stevo

                  This is the story of my experience with genealogy: more questions, more frustration.

                  I can look in the mirror and see that I'm a white guy.

                  I would like a little more information than that.
                  I understand your frustration, but on the other hand think that one day we'll know it all and only then we will realize all these search was just fun and in our subconscious we wished it would never end...

                  Comment


                  • Thank you for posting the question.

                    As you can see categorization is based on matches and averages.

                    The bottom line is nobody will come out and tell you that DYS 390 never mutates. It does, and so if you are a 23 you have a better chance of being Frisian but you cannot say on one marker alone, and possibly not 4 or even 12!

                    I have also occasionally watched Victor`s E3b project. I think, and he can correct me on this, that the picture is much clearer at 25 markers for identifying clusters than his 12 marker results.

                    I am not saying STR markers are an invalid method, just that you need more than 12 to start having a reasonable confidence level in identifying a geographic cluster.

                    Certainly close matches at 37 markers or higher is indicative of a more recent common origin, and if you found a cluster of families that are for example Irish. There is a good possibity that you have a potential for finding deeper SNPs in this group.

                    Think about it, how do they find these SNPs in the first place. They start out by trying to find aboriginal people. The strategy for identifying these groups is through archeology, culture language and then they test their DNA and try to find something unique.

                    Ok, now you have branches that are tens of thousands of years old. You can't find more aboriginal populations without controversy (Vikings R1b?, Romans J2? etc...) The mixing of populations in recent times (last 2-3 ky) presents a serious problem.

                    Looking at raw G-C-T and A seems pretty daunting to find new SNPs. The next best bet is STRs! You find several hundred people in Europe they have close matches at 37 markers, 85% of them share the same ethnic background chances are good you found something. But... will this cluster have unique SNPs, the non-recombining portion of the Y-DNA probably has only a limited number of mutations because they happen so rarely. It is possible that below S21 there are none to find? The code is identical? I hope this is not the case, but not every sub-group will have another sub-grouping. At one point you will reach the end.

                    That is why we need to have much more participation, particularly in Europe for R1b. We need to know if the sample we have is truly representative.

                    So for now encourage people to test more than 12 markers.

                    Comment


                    • I think this is a reasonable opinion:

                      http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-06/1149858276

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                        I think this is a reasonable opinion:

                        http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-06/1149858276
                        Honestly, I thought it was pretty obvious that having a haplotype that could be classified as belonging to the Frisian cluster does not make one "Frisian."

                        Comment


                        • I'm not able to see these Rootsweb replies when I check my home email from work. I think it's because my wife is reading them at home first, so they aren't coming through here.

                          I'll check again and see what I can see.

                          In the meantime: being R1b1 is kind of a pain in the butt. It's like having "European" stamped on your forehead.

                          One is left to wonder, "What kind of European?"



                          As an American with a paternal y-line paper trail that does not get out of this country, it is especially frustrating.

                          Comment


                          • BTW, it's my lunch break and planning period at work.

                            I'm watching the first World Cup game on tv with some of my students.

                            Germany is up 2-1, but it's anybody's game.

                            Wonder what y-haplogroups are represented by the players?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Stevo
                              BTW, it's my lunch break and planning period at work.

                              I'm watching the first World Cup game on tv with some of my students.

                              Germany is up 2-1, but it's anybody's game.

                              Wonder what y-haplogroups are represented by the players?
                              An American watching a footb...ehm...soccer match???

                              I don't make predictions on Costa Rica' s players hgs. As for Germany R1b (lots of fellow S21+'s) could be the bulk?And then? What about R1a, I1a and some J?
                              Last edited by F.E.C.; 9 June 2006, 01:10 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                                An American watching a footb...ehm...soccer match???
                                Oh, yeah!

                                I used to coach soccer at my old school.

                                Italy looks good.

                                But Brazil is going to be tough.

                                Comment

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