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  • Phoenician Dna?

    Have there been specific published results of the National Geographic sponsored study of Phoenicians. There have been many allusions to the findings but I have not seen any haplogroups listed. My guess is that there would be more J2 than J1 along with other haplogroups such as E3b or G.
    Last edited by josh w.; 19 May 2006, 08:17 PM.

  • #2
    Geneticist Pierre Zalloua did not publish all his findings to date. I guess they’re waiting to get to a stage where they can have a full complete report with solid evidences, but they did release some info.
    They have tested samples (do not know how many) from corpses found in Phoenician tombs, the results of that specific DNA test put these dead Phoenicians in the Haplogroup J2(M172). I have to admit that this does not conclusively make all Phoenicians part of Haplogroup J2, but until they release more data that’s what we have to base our discussion on.
    Dr. Zalloua also gave few lecture in the American University of Beirut, could not attend myself, but I had friends who did. Some of the data he shared with the audience of these lectures identify a large chunk of Lebanese as direct descendent of Phoenicians (J2 is also the Canaanite DNA marker – Dr. Spencer concludes that Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Lebanese are one people, check videos bottom right http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/)

    I cannot wait for when they publish their entire work.
    Last edited by Botrys; 20 May 2006, 01:02 AM.

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    • #3
      Interesting.

      Since Carthage was a Phoenician colony, that could explain some of the J2 in North Africa and Spain, as well.

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      • #4
        Botrys, your information is greatly appreciated. In Semino,s (2004) study which included a Lebanese sample, there were around 20% E3bs and 12% J1s with the ratio of J2 to J1 around 2:1. I wonder if they will find any E3bs or J1s. It is possible that these two haplogroups arrived later with the spread of Islam.
        Last edited by josh w.; 20 May 2006, 12:32 PM.

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        • #5
          Stevo,
          I agree, the Phoenicians are the major contributors to the J2 expansion through out the Mediterranean, and it happened in two periods. First, when the Phoenicians built cartage and many other colonies in North Africa, and Spain for maritime trade. (Hedsrubaal and Hanibaal after him were stationed in Spain with all their men and families). Second, to a smaller extent, when the arabs/muslim expansion began and they took over the Levant, many of the local population, including the Phoenicians/Canaanites (J2 marker) were converted to Islam one way or another. We have to assume that some of these newly converted joined the Arabs in their expansion in North Africa and into Spain.
          In both cases, you have to attribute the J2 distribution in North Africa and Spain directly to the Phoenicians / Canaanites.


          Josh,
          I read another study that have similar numbers but it puts the M35 (E3bs) at 26% of the population which is quite astonishing if you think about it (Lebanese have M35 in their genes more than the Greek do, as a comparison.)
          It also put the J2 % at around 30% while the J1 at around 15% which support your 2:1 ratio. (But other studies only put the J1 at around 10%, so we have to assume it is somewhere in the middle.)
          Your last question is a very good one. I’m very hesitant to forecast my own views (the non scientific ones) and claim that the e3bs did exist and always did in the Levant (that will be proven if Phoenician DNA includes the e3bs). That will explain the high % of M35 found among Lebanese. We have to wait for Dr. Zalloua and hope his final study will be detailed enough to answer such questions.



          Some of the numbers they found is included in the grid.

          Cheers
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Botrys; 20 May 2006, 03:13 PM.

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          • #6
            Thanks Botrys. Did your data come from the Nebel study?

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            • #7
              Phoenician contribution to Sicily

              Originally posted by Botrys
              Stevo,
              I agree, the Phoenicians are the major contributors to the J2 expansion through out the Mediterranean, and it happened in two periods. First, when the Phoenicians built cartage and many other colonies in North Africa, and Spain for maritime trade. (Hedsrubaal and Hanibaal after him were stationed in Spain with all their men and families). Second, to a smaller extent, when the arabs/muslim expansion began and they took over the Levant, many of the local population, including the Phoenicians/Canaanites (J2 marker) were converted to Islam one way or another. We have to assume that some of these newly converted joined the Arabs in their expansion in North Africa and into Spain.
              In both cases, you have to attribute the J2 distribution in North Africa and Spain directly to the Phoenicians / Canaanites.
              Could you comment on my posting in another thread yesterday about the deep ancestry of those J's with Sicilian ancestry? Over 33% of the yDNA results (15 of 43) in the Sicily Project are J's. Bonnie Schrack, who is very knowledgeable about the J haplogroups, has told me that probably a lot of the J's in Sicily have been there a very long time, since the Neolithic migrations from Anatolia. I have heard that a couple of times also from people on this message board.

              I'm wondering what percentage of the J's in the Sicily Project have deep ancestry that goes back more recently, to the Phoenicians or Carthaginians. Bonnie agrees that that would be a significant source in Sicily. Given your knowledge of Phoenician history, what would be your guess for the contribution by Phoenicians/Carthaginians to the genetic heritage of Sicily?

              Mike Maddi

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              • #8
                Phoenicians DNA?

                Notes on the Founding of the cities of Tyre and Carthage:

                The “Sea People” attempted to invade Egypt in the fifth year (1232 BCE) of Merneptah. After defeating them, he allowed them to settle freely on the coast of Palestine/Israel. He immortalized his successful strategy in stone: Plundered is the Canaan with every evil; Yanoam is made as that which does not exist; Israel is laid waste, his seed is not; Levant is become a widow for Egypt!
                Most historians, archeologist and anthropologist favor the view that the “Sea Peoples” (Biblical Philistines) were Indo-Europeans. Ugarit and Troy both suffered destruction during this mass migration of Indo-Europeans. Justinus in his Epitome of Trogus Pomepius (xviii.3.5) states that Tyre was founded a year before the fall of Troy. Tyre was built on an island opposite the more ancient mainland city of Usu (or Ushu). Neither Usu nor Tyre is found in the list of Syria cities tributary to Thutmose III (15th cen. BCE.) However, in the Amarna letters (14th cen. BCE.) Usu is said to be a competitor of Sidon for maritime trade. It is also mentioned in the Papyrus Anastasi (13th cen. BCE) as one of the cities cursed by the Egyptian Priests as an enemy of pharaoh.
                In his excavation at Carthage, Professor William F. Albright found Megiddo ware at the lowest level of the Tanis Precinct. He felt it had been brought to North Africa no later than the late 10th or early 9th century BCE, and that it continued to be used in the 8th century. Base on these findings Carthage is said to have been founded in about 850 BCE.
                The 1st century CE historian, Flavius Josephus, preserved these accounts from the Tyrian records:
                “I will now, therefore, pass from these records, and come to those that belong to the Phoenicians, and concern our nation, and shall produce attestations to what I have said out of them. There are then records among the Tyrians that take in the history of many years, and these are public writings, and are kept with great exactness, and include accounts of the facts done among them, and such as concern their transactions with other nations also, those I mean which were worth remembering. Therein it was recorded that the temple was built by king Solomon at Jerusalem, one hundred forty-three years and eight months before the Tyrians built Carthage; and in their annals the building of our temple is related; for Hirom, the king of Tyre, was the friend of Solomon our king,… [Against Apion I, 106-108] Now the time from this king to the building of Carthage is thus calculated: "Upon the death of Hirom, Baleazarus his son took the kingdom; he lived forty-three years, and reigned seven years: after him succeeded his son Abdastartus; he lived twenty-nine years, and reigned nine years. Now four sons of his nurse plotted against him and slew him, the eldest of whom reigned twelve years: after them came Astartus, the son of Deleastartus; he lived fifty-four years, and reigned twelve years: after him came his brother Aserymus; he lived fifty-four years, and reigned nine years: he was slain by his brother Pheles, who took the kingdom and reigned but eight months, though he lived fifty years: he was slain by Ithobalus, the priest of Astarte, who reigned thirty-two years, and lived sixty-eight years: he was succeeded by his son Badezorus, who lived forty-five years, and reigned six years: he was succeeded by Matgenus his son; he lived thirty-two years, and reigned nine years: Pygmalion succeeded him; he lived fifty-six years, and reigned forty-seven years. Now in the seventh year of his reign, his sister fled away from him, and built the city Carthage in Libya." So the whole time from the reign of Hirom, till the building of Carthage, amounts to the sum of one hundred fifty-five years and eight months.” [Against Apion I, 121-126]
                http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/p...man.html#text1

                Works Cited:
                Albright, William F. From The Stone Age to Christianity. Baltimore: John Hopkins Press, 1957.
                ________________ "The Role of the Canaanites in the History of Civilization,” The Bible and the Ancient Near East. Ed. G. Ernest Wright, 1965.
                Bickerman, E. J. The Chronology of the Ancient World. London: Thames and Hudson, 1980.
                Cross, Frank M. Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1973.
                Gordon, Cyrus Herzl. Ugaritic Textbook. Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1965.
                Obermann, Julian. Ugaritic Mythology: A Study of its Leading Motifs. New Haven: Yale University, 1948.
                Pritchard, James B. Ancient Near Eastern Text Relating to the Old Testament. Princeton University Press, 1950.
                Rowton, M. B. “The Date of the Founding of Solomon's Temple,” Bulletin of the American School of Oriental Research, No. 119. 1950. pp 20-22.
                Van Zijl, Peter Johannes. Baal: A Study of Text in Connection with Baal in Ugartic Epics. Kevelaer, Butzon.
                Young, Gordon Douglas (editor), Ugarit in Retrospect: Fifty years of Ugarit and Ugaritic. Winome Lake, Ind: Eisenbraums, 1981.

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                • #9
                  The main Phoenician DNA is K2. It is has specific markers indicating Canaanite origin. The Phoenicians and ancient Hebrews and Arabs were two different people genetically.

                  K2 is found in Italy (particularly Sardinia), Spain and Egypt. It is very common in Andalucia and more specifically around Cadiz, a Phoenician port, and of course in Malta.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kristin
                    The main Phoenician DNA is K2. It is has specific markers indicating Canaanite origin. The Phoenicians and ancient Hebrews and Arabs were two different people genetically.

                    K2 is found in Italy (particularly Sardinia), Spain and Egypt. It is very common in Andalucia and more specifically around Cadiz, a Phoenician port, and of course in Malta.
                    It sounds like you're confusing yDNA with mtDNA. We're discussing Lebanese yDNA, which is probably by and large in the J haplogroup. I did find reference in a google search to the mtDNA haplogroup emerging in northern Israel and Lebanon. That must be what you're referrring to.

                    Mike Maddi

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by josh w.
                      Have there been specific published results of the National Geographic sponsored study of Phoenicians. There have been many allusions to the findings but I have not seen any haplogroups listed. My guess is that there would be more J2 than J1 along with other haplogroups such as E3b or G.

                      If you find the Phoenicians you get the Manohians [sp?]
                      who was the best ship builders and didnt need armies with thier navy . which returned from the island exploding and no port. who else but the decedents of noah the first ship builder. The one nimrod went to get the gilgimesh story from you can always count on me

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                      • #12
                        Josh- Sorry for the late response. I have requested info from Dr. Zallua in which he promised will send my way as soon as he finishes his work. Once I get it, I will post it in this forum.

                        To say Lebanese DNA by in large belongs to J is not an accurate statement. All studies that I read put the J1 marker around 10% and the J2 marker around 30%. All these studies are based on a small number of participants (under 100 per study). We can use these numbers as an indication of what the Lebanese DNA looks like, but we can not present the data as a definite conclusion.
                        Dr. Zallua briefly shared with me that Hg I and the Eb3 are more widespread among Lebanese than what was early believed. How wide spread, who knows?
                        I myself belong to Hg I, and I already ordered a deep-SNP I test to find out what sub-Hg I belong too.

                        Kristin – could you share more info with us in relation to your assertion? I have to admit that I do not follow your post.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Botrys
                          To say Lebanese DNA by in large belongs to J is not an accurate statement. All studies that I read put the J1 marker around 10% and the J2 marker around 30%. All these studies are based on a small number of participants (under 100 per study). We can use these numbers as an indication of what the Lebanese DNA looks like, but we can not present the data as a definite conclusion.
                          Dr. Zallua briefly shared with me that Hg I and the Eb3 are more widespread among Lebanese than what was early believed. How wide spread, who knows?
                          I myself belong to Hg I, and I already ordered a deep-SNP I test to find out what sub-Hg I belong too.

                          Kristin – could you share more info with us in relation to your assertion? I have to admit that I do not follow your post.
                          Well, the figures you cite indicate, although with small numbers in the studies, that the J haplogroup might represent about 40%. That is close to my definition of "by and large." I didn't mean the majority, just the most common haplogroup by that term. But I could easily see E3b having a significant percentage. I'm a little surprised by I, but probably shouldn't be since the Balkans are rich in I and close to Lebanon.

                          I too would like to hear Kristin share more info with us.

                          Mike

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                          • #14
                            There’re many theories that could explain the existence of hg I in Lebanon and in the Levant in general.
                            One will be; many crusaders married and settled in Lebanon during the crusade and more when they lost Jerusalem and needed a place to hide from their enemies.
                            Another one; many European missionaries (French) settled in Lebanon and married with the local people.

                            But how about this; If the marker M (170) believed to have began around 15000 years ago, maybe in the north part of the Levant, or in the Belkans (the jury still out on this one), and we have historic recorded migration for large number of people (Maronites, Orthodox Christians) that left the north part of the Fertile Crescent and settled in Lebanon, then that could be it.

                            The first two options might explain a 1 or 2 % injection of what we define as European DNA, but will not explain ~60% (I, Eb3, etc..). The third option seems the more logical to me, in relation of explaining the hg I existence in the Levant, while in the eb3s case I believe they always existed in the Levant (inland and the cost) and from there it moved to Europe.
                            Last edited by Botrys; 21 June 2006, 12:46 PM.

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                            • #15
                              K2 M70

                              I was not referring to the MtDNA haplogroup K. I should have specified more because I can understand the confusion between the two.

                              The Y chromosome group K2 M70 is the main Phoenician DNA. It originated in central Asia. There are others in the the K haplogroup but the M70 indicates Phoenician origin. It does not reach a high frequency anywhere really but in Europe it is most common in parts of Italy and Spain.

                              It is not the only DNA to indicate Phoenician origin.

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