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  • #46
    Kristin, greatly appreciate your info. Do you have any sources on Zalloua and Well's conclusions. I also wonder as to how they can distinguish between Islamic and Phoenican contributions. Up until the present I thought it was on the basis of J1(Islamic expansion) vs. J2 (Phoenician). This conclusion assumes that they have identified ancient Phoenician Ydna as J2.
    Last edited by josh w.; 22 June 2006, 02:59 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by josh w.
      I also wonder as to how they can distinguish between Islamic and Phoenican contributions. Up until the present I thought it was on the basis of J1(Islamic expansion) vs. J2 (Phoenician). This conclusion assumes that they have identified ancient Phoenician Ydna as J2.
      Greek and Phoenician both probably had J2 as a major haplogroup, and they also both had colonies in some same areas, but in little different time. Maybe it can be difficult to distinguish between possible origin of Phoenician and Greek DNA in some areas.

      Map of Phoenician colonies
      http://phoenicia.org/imgs/maps/page...ntradeposts.htm

      Map of Greek colonies: http://www.wwnorton.com/college/his...ce/grkcolon.htm

      some Wikipedia info about ancient colonies:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonies

      About J2:s subclade J2f1 in the link below is said that its geographical distribution matches the distribution of historical Greek colonisation.
      http://www.greekdnaproject.net/greekdnaproject.html

      Comment


      • #48
        Leo, I agree. I am not clear on how Wells can be sure that the ancestry was really Phoenician. The only clue that he gave was that the haplogroups were different from surrounding areas in Tunisia and Malta. I took this to mean that it wasn't J1 and E3b. As has been noted, Well's hinting at results without presenting data is not very helpful.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by LeoLoS
          Greek and Phoenician both probably had J2 as a major haplogroup, and they also both had colonies in some same areas, but in little different time. Maybe it can be difficult to distinguish between possible origin of Phoenician and Greek DNA in some areas.

          Map of Phoenician colonies
          http://phoenicia.org/imgs/maps/page...ntradeposts.htm

          Map of Greek colonies: http://www.wwnorton.com/college/his...ce/grkcolon.htm

          some Wikipedia info about ancient colonies:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonies

          About J2:s subclade J2f1 in the link below is said that its geographical distribution matches the distribution of historical Greek colonisation.
          http://www.greekdnaproject.net/greekdnaproject.html
          As far as Greek and Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies in Sicily, they were contemporaneous for a few hundred years. There was warfare between the Greek and Carthaginian colonies that gradually pushed the Carthaginian colonies back to the western part of the island somewhat.

          You can see from a timeline on this page, http://dieli.net/SicilyPage/History/SicilianHist.html, that the Phoenicians arrived first, directly from the eastern Mediterranean, about 1000 BC. Then about 800 BC both the Greeks and Carthaginians began colonies.

          The Greeks remained even past the time of Roman conquest and beyond - Sicily was probably largely Greek-speaking until the arrival of the Arabs in the 9th century AD. The timeline shows that the Carthaginians maintained colonies in Sicily until at least 400 BC and had some role in Sicily until Rome defeated them in the Second Punic War about 200 BC.

          Mike

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MMaddi
            As far as Greek and Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies in Sicily, they were contemporaneous for a few hundred years. There was warfare between the Greek and Carthaginian colonies that gradually pushed the Carthaginian colonies back to the western part of the island somewhat.

            You can see from a timeline on this page, http://dieli.net/SicilyPage/History/SicilianHist.html, that the Phoenicians arrived first, directly from the eastern Mediterranean, about 1000 BC. Then about 800 BC both the Greeks and Carthaginians began colonies.

            The Greeks remained even past the time of Roman conquest and beyond - Sicily was probably largely Greek-speaking until the arrival of the Arabs in the 9th century AD. The timeline shows that the Carthaginians maintained colonies in Sicily until at least 400 BC and had some role in Sicily until Rome defeated them in the Second Punic War about 200 BC.

            Mike
            It would be interesting to study RAO:s from Sicily project of J2 members. Maybe you could see some difference in 11/12 or 10/12 matches due to possibly Phoenician, Greek or Arab origin. If I understood the timeline correct, all Jews were expelled from Sicily. How was the case with Arabs or people of Moorish origin, were they also expelled?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by LeoLoS
              It would be interesting to study RAO:s from Sicily project of J2 members. Maybe you could see some difference in 11/12 or 10/12 matches due to possibly Phoenician, Greek or Arab origin. If I understood the timeline correct, all Jews were expelled from Sicily. How was the case with Arabs or people of Moorish origin, were they also expelled?
              I'll have to take the time to look at the RAO's for each of the J2 members in the project. There are 14, so I'll wait until tomorrow to do that. There are also 2 J1 members. This is out of 47 yDNA results for project members. You can see all the haplotypes at our website, at www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily.

              What I can do right now is tell what I do know about the J2 members' subclades. This information is based on both SNP tests and consultation with Bonnie Schrack, who many recognize as a person very knowledgeable about the J haplogroups. She has been working with me and some of the J members of the Sicily Project on questions of deep ancestry and further testing.

              One thing she emphasizes is that she believes that a sizeable percentage of the J lineages in Sicily probably have been there since the Neolithic migrations from Anatolia and nearby into Europe. In fact, one of our J1's has an interesting match with a haplotype which was observed by Cinnioglu in eastern Turkey, which may indicate this member's deep ancestors migrated from Anatolia in the Neolithic period and this paternal line has been in Sicily a long time. This member is upgrading to 37 markers which may tell more.

              Here is the breakdown of the 14 J2's by subclade, as determined by SNP test or Bonnie's knowledge of J haplotypes; these are all named using ISOGG's latest haplogroup tree, not FTDNA's subclade tree:

              J2a1k - 4
              J2a1b - 2
              J2a1b1 - 1
              J2 - 1
              J2* - 1
              J2b - 1
              J2b1 - 1
              Unclear - 3

              I don't know if anyone can pick out deep ancestry from these subclades, but that's we have so far. Perhaps when I look at the RAOs for these members tomorrow something may emerge as far as deep ancestry and the subclade associated with it.

              As far as the question of Jews and Arabs/Muslims in Sicily and how much of their genetic contribution remains, I'll tell you what I know, as far as the history. First of all, we do have one project member, an E3b2 (out of 5 E3b's), who has been SNP-tested as M81+. This is a SNP which is found widely among the Berbers of north Africa. So it seems clear that this member's deep ancestry is Berber. Whether his lineage has been in Sicily for thousands of years or arrived with the Muslim rulers in the period of 850-1070 AD is the question.

              The first thing to understand about the role of religion in Sicily in the Middle Ages is that there was much more toleration among Christians, Muslims and Jews than in other parts of Europe. The situation in Sicily was closer to the relative toleration by the Muslim rulers of Andalusia towards their Christian and Jewish subjects. When the Muslims ruled Sicily, Christians had to pay a special tax (jizya) in order to practice their religion - and vice versa when the Normans took over about 1070. So there certainly was an incentive to convert from one religion to another when rulers of a different religion took over. But for those who were devout in their faith, they could practice their religion and pay a tax.

              The point I'm making is that it's quite possible that when the Normans took over, a certain percentage of the Muslims (either Arab or Berber) converted to Christianity to avoid paying the jizya. So you might have a small percentage of today's Sicilians or Sicilian-Americans who actually have Arab or Berber deep ancestry and not know it. I suppose to the extent the Sicily Project grows, we might even find out what percentage that is. However, the history is that under papal pressure, Frederick Hohenstaufen, the king of Sicily (who spoke Arabic and corresponded with Muslim philosophers and scientists around the Mediterranean), expelled all the Muslims from Sicily about 1230.

              As far as the Jews, there was relative toleration of them under both the Muslim and Christian rulers. As the history timeline I linked to indicated, the local government of Sicily resisted Ferdinand and Isabella's 1492 edict forcing conversion or expulsion of Jews for several months. I'm not sure how many of Sicily's Jews or those Sephardic Jews from Spain who fled there converted to Christianity versus those who left. However, I am on a genealogy e-mail list for the Sicilian town of Termini Imerese, which is on the north coast of Sicily and had a lot of Spanish influence. There is a thread going on now about the surname Navarra, which is found in Termini and evidently originates among Spanish Sephardic Jews. Also, another person I know who has ancestors from the small town where my paternal grandparents were born, is able to trace his ancestors to Sephardic Jews who fled to Sicily. So there is some remnant of Sephardic Jewish ancestry among Sicilians and Sicilian-Americans. Just how much I don't know.

              Mike

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              • #52
                Termini Imerese

                In my previous posting I mentioned Termini Imerese, a Sicilian town on the north coast which had a lot of Spanish influence and where there are some surnames that may indicate Sephardic Jewish ancestry. One other thing about Termini Imerese relates directly to the question of the Phoenicians/Carthaginians in Sicily.

                In the Sicilian history timeline I linked to there is an entry for 480 BC. It reports on the defeat of the Carthaginians by the Greeks in that year at Himera. The current city of Termini Imerese is located right near the ancient ruins of Himera. In fact, the "Imerese" part of the city's name is a reference to the ancient city of Himera. This battle marked the easternmost penetration of the Carthaginians in Sicily. After they lost this battle, they were gradually forced to the western end of Sicily.

                Mike

                Comment


                • #53
                  Very interesting info in your last links. Sicily seems indeed to have been a melting pot of different people and cultures. Maybe it is not so easy to distinguish between prehistoric J2:s and later J2 immigrants. Also Josh has pointed out several times that an overrepresentation of Jews and an underrepresentation of Muslims in FTDNA might give a skewed picture of matches, like to many Ashkenazi matches.

                  It is so long time since the Phoenicians and Greek had their colonies in Sicily, so it is probably no longer possible to see any difference between nowadays J2 haplotypes from western respective eastern Sicily.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I looked again at the Capelli paper regarding the difference btw different parts of Sicily. Nothing particularly striking, and the sample is not big, so it's hard to say anything, but anyway, here's some data (in percentage points)

                    East (87p) 28 E3b, 7 JxJ2, 28 J2, 4 I, 4 G, 4 K, 22 R
                    SW (55p) 16 E3b, 0 JxJ2, 27 J2, 5 I, 14 G, 5 K, 21 R
                    NW (70p) 21 E3b, 7 JxJ2, 11 J2, 15 I, 11 G, 2 K, 29 R

                    Overall, despite caveats given the small sample, one gets a picture of a slightly more mediterranean-middle eastern Eastern Sicily (NW has much lower J2 and East has higher E3b-J). NW also has higher I and R. I haven't looked at the paper, so I don't know if it is possible to distinguish autoctonous I's from Skandinavian I (=Normans?).

                    This pattern is broadly speaking consistent with an old result by Cavalli et al, who, looking at various genes, found that Eastern Sicily/Southern Calabria were the Italian areas closest to Greece. Interpretations of these results in terms of prehistoric vs historical time periods are open.

                    (Small note to Maddi: note the high fractions of Gs in W. 14 in your sample doesn't look out of place).

                    cacio

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by cacio
                      I looked again at the Capelli paper regarding the difference btw different parts of Sicily. Nothing particularly striking, and the sample is not big, so it's hard to say anything, but anyway, here's some data (in percentage points)

                      East (87p) 28 E3b, 7 JxJ2, 28 J2, 4 I, 4 G, 4 K, 22 R
                      SW (55p) 16 E3b, 0 JxJ2, 27 J2, 5 I, 14 G, 5 K, 21 R
                      NW (70p) 21 E3b, 7 JxJ2, 11 J2, 15 I, 11 G, 2 K, 29 R

                      Overall, despite caveats given the small sample, one gets a picture of a slightly more mediterranean-middle eastern Eastern Sicily (NW has much lower J2 and East has higher E3b-J). NW also has higher I and R. I haven't looked at the paper, so I don't know if it is possible to distinguish autoctonous I's from Skandinavian I (=Normans?).

                      This pattern is broadly speaking consistent with an old result by Cavalli et al, who, looking at various genes, found that Eastern Sicily/Southern Calabria were the Italian areas closest to Greece. Interpretations of these results in terms of prehistoric vs historical time periods are open.

                      (Small note to Maddi: note the high fractions of Gs in W. 14 in your sample doesn't look out of place).

                      cacio
                      Thanks for that clarification. Later today I will put together a comparison of the RAO's of the project members and compare it to their haplogroups. I'll post about that here tonight.

                      Here are some thoughts off the top of my head about Cacio's posting of the haplogroup breakdown in Sicily by the three regions, as reported by Capelli.

                      First of all, about the high level of I in the NW region. Perhaps this has something to do with the Albanians who fled the Ottoman takeover of the Balkans in the mid-15th century. There are four main towns in Sicily where they settled, all in Palermo province, which is roughly the NW. I would think that Albanians have a high percentage of I for their haplogroup.

                      Regarding the presence of G in Sicily, one explanation that accounts for that is the Sarmatian tribe that accompanied the Vandals in their exploits throughout Europe as the Roman Empire fell apart. Ray Banks has written about them, at http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/G2Ideas, and mentions that the Alan sub-tribe of the Sarmatians occupied Sicily and Sardinia for a time. The Sarmatians main haplogroup is regarded as G. It's interesting that the level of G is not so high at all in the East region of Sicily, as measured by Capelli. I wonder if the Alans did not have much to do with the eastern part of Sicily.

                      And I see that there's a slightly higher level of R in NW Sicily than in SW or East. I wonder if this might be due to the NW including Palermo, the largest city and capital of Sicily for the last 1200 years. This slightly higher level might be due to both the Normans and merchants and administrators from northern Italy (especially Genoa and Pisa) concentrating in Palermo and nearby areas. The Normans would include both R1a and R1b and there is a higher level of R1b among northern Italians, compared to Sicily and southern Italy.

                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Mmaddi:

                        the Albanian towns may be one of the reasons, though 15% seems too high to be explained by that (those are small towns after all, we're talking of no more than 20-30 thousand people). I guess a deeper analysis (eg are they Scandinavian I1a or other subgroups) may help.

                        I have seen the Alan theory, but I am quite skeptical. The numbers are simply way too big to be explained by a relatively minor invaders' group. I don't think there is much evidence for a significant contribution of larger Barbaric groups (like Ostrogoths or Lombards) to the overall Italian Y landscape, so an Alan contribution would be odd. Note that, as said in the link, G are common throughout the whole country: according to Di Giacomo, Luca et al., they are 6.7% of a large (1000) Italian (peninsular) sample, with high percentages in many towns (eg 15% Foggia, 10% Benevento and Genova). The most likely explanation is an ancient origin (neolithic or otherwise).

                        As for the R's, I think R1bs must have been among the original inhabitants of Sicily. Before the greeks and the phoenicians, Sicily was inhabited by various groups, some of which spoke Italic languages, and were thus presumably similar to the other peninsular Italians. Though of course that doesn't explain the differential geographic pattern.

                        cacio

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          RAOs of Sicily Project J2 members

                          As suggested yesterday and as I promised, here is a list of RAOs for the 14 Sicily Project members who are in the J2 haplogroup:

                          #1 J2*: Italy -1, Mongolia – 2, Scotland – 1 (all 2-step)

                          #2 J2a1k: England – 2, Cape Verde – 1, Germany – 1, Greece - 1, Italy - 1, Lithuania (Ashkenazi) – 1, Mexico - 1, Poland (Ashkenazi-Cohen) – 1, Portugal – 1, Puerto Rico - 1, Romania – 1, Spain – 1, Ukraine – 1, U.S. - 1, Wales - 1 (all 2-step)

                          #3 J2a1k: Sicily - 1 (exact); Italy – 1 (1-step)

                          #4 J2a1k: Italy – 1, Sicily – 1 (both 1-step)

                          #5 J2a1b1: Germany – 2, Czech Republic – 1, Italy – 1, Russia – 1, Spain – 1 (all 1-step); England – 6, Sweden – 3, Germany – 2, Italy – 2, Denmark – 1, Ecuador – 1, Iran – 1, Ireland – 1, Romania – 1, Russia -1, Sicily – 1, Syria – 1, Turkey – 1, Uzbekistan – 1 (all 2-step)

                          #6 unclear: no close matches, even at 12 markers!

                          #7 J2a1b: no close matches, even at 12 markers!

                          #8 J2b: at 25 markers, Germany – 1 (1-step mutation); Germany – 2 (2-step mutation)
                          at 12 markers, England – 1, Germany – 1 (exact); Germany – 8, Italy – 6, Switzerland – 6, Scotland – 3, England – 2, France – 2, Prussia – 2, Russia – 2, Austria – 1, Belarus – 1, British Isles – 1, Czech Republic – 1, Great Britain – 1, Greece – 1, Lithuania – 1, Norway – 1, Sicily – 1, Spain – 1, Sweden – 1, Ukraine – 1, UK – 1 (all 1-step); dozens more at 2-step, including England – 16, Germany – 12, UK – 10

                          #9 unclear: Italy – 1 (exact); Switzerland – 1 (2-step)

                          #10 J2b1: Lebanon – 1 (1-step); Germany – 7, England – 6, India – 2, France – 1, Greece – 1, Ireland – 1, Italy – 1, Native American (!) – 1, Romania – 1, Spain – 1, Sri Lanka – 1

                          #11 J2a1k: Italy – 1 (exact); Italy – 1 (1-step)

                          #12 J2: England – 2, Greece – 2, Germany – 1, Great Britain – 1, Italy – 1, Scotland – 1 (all 2-step)

                          #13 J2a1b: Italy – 1, Sicily – 1 (1-step mutation); Spain – 3, Canada – 1, England – 1, France – 1, Guatemala – 1, Italy – 1, Russia – 1, Syria – 1, Uzbekistan – 1 (all 2-step)

                          #14 unclear: Lithuania (1 Ashkenazi) – 6, Russia – 5, Germany – 4, Italy – 3, Spain – 2, Algeria – 1, Austria – 1, Israel – 1, Romania – 1, Ukraine (Ashkenazi) -1 (all 1-step); England – 2, Italy - 2, Russia – 2, Sicily – 2, Syria – 2, Belarus – 1, Ecuador – 1, Germany – 1, Ireland – 1, Malta – 1, Romania – 1, Uzbekistan – 1 (all 2-step)

                          It's hard to say much about what the RAO may say about these members' deep ancestry, since almost all of these comparisons are at the 12 marker level. There's a few things which stand out.

                          #8, J2b, is the only one with significant matches at 25 markers. Those, along with many of his matches at 12 markers, seem to indicate a close connection to J's who have German ancestry. Whether this means his deep ancestry is German is hard to say.

                          You'll also notice that 3 of the 4 J2a1k (#s 3, 4 & 11) match each other closely. #s 3 and 4 are third cousins and #11 matches one perfectly and is a 1-step mutation to the other cousin. Because of some unusual marker values these 3 share, Bonnie Schrack believes they may share deep ancestry or belong to the same clan. One of the cousins is supposed to upgrade to 37 markers.

                          It looks like #14 may have Jewish ancestry, as he has two 1-step Ashkenazi matches, a 1-step Israeli match and several 1-step and 2-step matches in Eastern Europe.

                          This is a lot like reading tea leaves, but those are the cases that stand out. If anyone sees any other interesting thing, feel free to comment.

                          Mike

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Interesting to look at so many RAO:s, it must have been much work to get it all done. #3, #4 and #11 only get matches from Italy and Sicily, does this eventually mean that their haplotypes have been for a longer time in Italy, like having prehistoric J2 ancestors? Otherwise there aren't so many matches from Near East or Lebanon (as Syria and Israel) which could indicate Phoenician ancestors.

                            #5 get one match from each Turkey, Syria and Iran, none from Greece
                            #10 get one match from Lebanon and one from Greece
                            #13 get one from Syria, none from Greece
                            #14 get one from Israel and two from Syria, none from Greece

                            As my own RAO at the moment shows figures like Israel (91), Syria (120), Irag (9), Iran (87) and on the other hand Germany (3785), England (8528), Ireland (4453) and United Kingdom (2912) it is naturally that you don't get so much matches from Near East compared to matches for instance from Germany or England. Sicily has only 102, Greece 243 and Italy a bit more with 878 test results.

                            I use to to count the percentages from each country by excel, then sort them and eventually filter away testresults less than 100 from my 11/12 and 10/12 matches. That gave me Greece with first place for both 11/12 and 10/12 matches and Italy and Sicily with second place for 10/12 matches. Don't know if this method tells you the whole truth, I am E3b1 and Greece and Balkan has pretty high e3b concentration compared to Germany and England (from where I actually get most absolute numbers of matches). Actually I also have one 11/12 match from Israel and two 11/12 Ashkenazi and one 11/12 Askenazi-Levite match, but eight 11/12 matches from Greece, so I think Greece is a better explanation for my ancestry 2000-3000 years ago. But I might of course be wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Genographic Project has added the following info. about Haplogroup K2 (M70):

                              "Ancient members of this haplogroup dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of North Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastline of southern Europe.

                              These movements suggest an intriguing possibility- the M70 marker may have been carried by the Phoenicians. These seafaring people established a formidable first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern Lebanon.”

                              Also: “ M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it endures in its highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in northeast Africa. Members of this haplogroup also live in the southern Spain and France.”

                              Also wikipedia says the following: " Recent DNA (Y chromosome) studies conducted by the National Geographic Magazine on the bones of ancient Phoenicians and living people from Lebanon and elsewhere in the Mediterranean prove that both Muslims and Christians from those areas carry the same ancient Phoenician genetic material. Further, the Phoenician bloodline has been proven to come from an ancient Mediterranean sub-stratum (see: Arniaz-Villena, et al. "HLA genes in Macedonians..." Tissue Antigens, February 2001, volume 57, issue 2, pages 118-12). "

                              So this raises a few questions:

                              1) Is analyzing y-DNA from bones of ancient corpses possible as the article in wikipedia suggests?

                              2) Could it be that the Phoenicians themselves were not of homogeneous origins, and hence different Haplogroups are reflected in what is believed today to be descendants of those Phoenicians (i.e Hg I,J & K)?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Shaibani:

                                I would agree with you that Phoenicians were a mixture of the usual Middle Eastern haplogroups. Historical phoenicians appear may be 3000 years ago, but certain haplogroups like J and E3b are supposed to have spread much earlier, 10K years ago or more, not only in the Middle East but also in the Mediterranean. So one would guess that they were the usual J/E3b/K2 (but not I, I is quintessentially European). They may have further spread some haplogroups in the Mediterranean (maybe even my own L), but J2's and E3b were already there.

                                Limited data on modern day Lebanese people seems to show that the Lebanese resemble the rest of the Middle East in the Y chromosome. Muslim and Christian Lebanese are similar, although Muslim have a lot of J1 whereas the Christians have J2. Lebanon seems to have a little bit more of variety and of European/Northern haplogroups, which can be explained by the geographical location, closer to turkey and the northern mediterranean. But as said, the data is very limited.

                                This story of ancient Phoenician DNA has been circulating for a while. But nobody has seen anything yet...

                                cacio

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