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Phoenician Dna?

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  • #16
    I am going to look up some numbers and try to find out more because it is an uncommon sequence but the presents of K2 M70 with the groups J1, J2 and E3 in certain areas indicates Phoenician origin. I believe they can some how tell the difference if a popualtion came from a Phoenician origin or if it came from Moors or the Jewish diaspora. How they can tell the difference I am not sure but one indication geographically speaking is the presents of K2.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Kristin
      I was not referring to the MtDNA haplogroup K. I should have specified more because I can understand the confusion between the two.

      The Y chromosome group K2 M70 is the main Phoenician DNA. It originated in central Asia. There are others in the the K haplogroup but the M70 indicates Phoenician origin. It does not reach a high frequency anywhere really but in Europe it is most common in parts of Italy and Spain.

      It is not the only DNA to indicate Phoenician origin.
      Very interesting. I looked at the haplogroup K page on the International Society of Genetic Genealogy website, at http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpK.html. It lists M70 as defining the K2 subclade, which, by the way, Thomas Jefferson was a member of. The description of the origin of the K haplogroup is southwestern Asia, which would correspond roughly to the Levant or nearby.

      Do you have any citations for scientific studies for M70 as a Phoenician marker? Do these studies give a percentage for M70+ among modern-day Lebanese?

      I'd also like to hear what Botrys knows abaout M70 or what his impressions are after hearing about it being called a marker for Phoenician ancestry.

      Mike

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      • #18
        Haplogroup I is also present in what is now Turkey. There have been both invasions of the Levant as well as trade between Turkey and the Levant, e.g. the Hittites, the Sea Peoples, not to mention Ottoman control.

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        • #19
          For some reason I am having problems locating the original document that I got this from. I will continue searching as I am work write now and sometimes I am going between two things and perhaps not making much sense. I apoligize for that.

          Just to clarify what I was saying, K2 is not the only Phoenician DNA but the presence (spelled correctly this time ) indicates a Phoenician origin. K2 M70 is found in Lebanon. The other haplogroups mentioned (J1, J2 and E3b) are Phoenician as well but they are also found in other groups. As soon as I find the article I will post it and try to find out more so I am not confusing people even more.
          Last edited by Kristin; 21 June 2006, 03:25 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Botrys
            But how about this; If the marker M (170) believed to have began around 15000 years ago, maybe in the north part of the Levant, or in the Belkans (the jury still out on this one), and we have historic recorded migration for large number of people (Maronites, Orthodox Christians) that left the north part of the Fertile Crescent and settled in Lebanon, then that could be it.
            According to this paper, a shocking 34% of Tehran residents are of yDNA Hg I:

            http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/C..._big_paper.pdf

            The same paper says that 32% of Ardon residents (a city in Ossetia, in the Caucasus) are also Hg I.

            This paper says that 58% of Darginians (another ethnic group in the Caucasus) are Hg I:

            http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf

            And yet, almost paradoxically, this paper found 15 out of 20 Palestinians living in Israel to be of Hg G2:

            http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Shen2004.pdf

            All of these papers claim to be checking SNPs properly, and not just guessing from STRs.

            Could we be seeing a sampling problem, given that most of these studies are probably not choosing their donors randomly (a la Gallup polling) but rather asking for volunteers at some particular spot in a particular neighborhood of a particular city?
            Last edited by lgmayka; 21 June 2006, 03:45 PM.

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            • #21
              I'd also like to hear what Botrys knows abaout M70 or what his impressions are after hearing about it being called a marker for Phoenician ancestry.

              This is new news to me. I’m going to wait until I read the paper Kristin referenced. We all read papers written by conclusion-eager researchers, where most of their assertions are based on weak (at best) evidences.


              Haplogroup I is also present in what is now Turkey. There have been both invasions of the Levant as well as trade between Turkey and the Levant, e.g. the Hittites, the Sea Peoples, not to mention Ottoman control.

              The Ottoman rules and their DNA’s influence in the Levant is non existent, at least in the non Muslim minorities. hg I exists in Turkey might be related to many factors also, and one of them the migration of that hg from the north of the Levant to Anatolia (trade, etc…). Phoenicians built many cities on the cost of south and wet turkey.

              Could we be seeing a sampling problem, given that most of these studies are probably not choosing their donors randomly (a la Gallup polling) but rather asking for volunteers at some particular spot in a particular neighborhood of a particular city?

              That might be part of it. Dr. Zallua study is using radom sampling, and Ibelieve the number will be in the thousands. So when that study is done, it will surelly give us a better clear picture.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by lgmayka
                According to this paper, a shocking 34% of Tehran residents are of yDNA Hg I:

                http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/C..._big_paper.pdf

                The same paper says that 32% of Ardon residents (a city in Ossetia, in the Caucasus) are also Hg I.

                This paper says that 58% of Darginians (another ethnic group in the Caucasus) are Hg I:

                http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Y-paper.pdf

                And yet, almost paradoxically, this paper found 15 out of 20 Palestinians living in Israel to be of Hg G2:

                http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Shen2004.pdf

                All of these papers claim to be checking SNPs properly, and not just guessing from STRs.

                Could we be seeing a sampling problem, given that most of these studies are probably not choosing their donors randomly (a la Gallup polling) but rather asking for volunteers at some particular spot in a particular neighborhood of a particular city?
                I skimmed over that first paper. It looked fascinating.

                Where is our old friend Irubak?

                He is a Georgian, and, as I recall, belongs to the old undifferentiated y-haplogroup I.

                Is that the primary type of Y-hg I found in the Caucasus and Iran, or is it some other clade?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Phoenicians

                  K2 YDNA is of Middle East origin. Dr. Wells is of the opinion that K2 YDNA is ancient Phoenician.

                  I also got some information from www.phoenicia.org

                  Results and surprises

                  One of the biggest surprises discovered till now is the genetic relationship between the people of Malta and the people of the Lebanese coast. Genetic similarities between the two groups are so high that they are a cause of amazement and surprise. What this has proven, so far, is the validity of the accounts of Phoenician history, on one hand, against the results of genetic studies in geographical areas of Phoenician colonies, on the other.

                  Genetic studies underway will clear the mystery of the Phoenicians, and perhaps, embarrass many others. It is going to address a struggle over the history and ancestry of Lebanon which used to be thought of as a struggle over myths.

                  Points of reference

                  The reference of the genetic prototype for the Phoenician makeup is based on human remains discovered in Turkey, as well as a human jaw—perhaps up to 4,000 years old—found in a mountain cave at Raskifa, Lebanon. Additional human remains are used, as well, for constructing a clear image of the Phoenician genetic point of reference.

                  Zalloua and Wells had to go to the Turkey National Museum to get DNA samples from a Phoenician sarcophagus, since Lebanon’s National Museum shamfefully denied their request for a sample. Dr. Zalloua had to admit that he was disappointed in the lack of cooperation he received from the archaeologists in Lebanon. “They did not believe in our cause, that we are all one or at least have a common ancestral background, and hence, should not fight about that.”


                  I will post more as I find it.
                  Last edited by Kristin; 21 June 2006, 07:49 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kristin
                    K2 YDNA is of Middle East origin. Dr. Wells is of the opinion that K2 YDNA is ancient Phoenician.
                    How, base on what evidences. Did he collect DNA samples from Phoenician corpses that tested K2? If it is ancient and middle eastern, it does not make it phoenician.



                    the old undifferentiated y-haplogroup I.
                    For a hg I fellow, I'm interested to know what you mean by Undifferentiated y-haplogroup I.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Kristin
                      K2 YDNA is of Middle East origin. Dr. Wells is of the opinion that K2 YDNA is ancient Phoenician.

                      I also got some information from www.phoenicia.org

                      Results and surprises

                      One of the biggest surprises discovered till now is the genetic relationship between the people of Malta and the people of the Lebanese coast. Genetic similarities between the two groups are so high that they are a cause of amazement and surprise. What this has proven, so far, is the validity of the accounts of Phoenician history, on one hand, against the results of genetic studies in geographical areas of Phoenician colonies, on the other.

                      Genetic studies underway will clear the mystery of the Phoenicians, and perhaps, embarrass many others. It is going to address a struggle over the history and ancestry of Lebanon which used to be thought of as a struggle over myths.

                      Points of reference

                      The reference of the genetic prototype for the Phoenician makeup is based on human remains discovered in Turkey, as well as a human jaw—perhaps up to 4,000 years old—found in a mountain cave at Raskifa, Lebanon. Additional human remains are used, as well, for constructing a clear image of the Phoenician genetic point of reference.

                      Zalloua and Wells had to go to the Turkey National Museum to get DNA samples from a Phoenician sarcophagus, since Lebanon’s National Museum shamfefully denied their request for a sample. Dr. Zalloua had to admit that he was disappointed in the lack of cooperation he received from the archaeologists in Lebanon. “They did not believe in our cause, that we are all one or at least have a common ancestral background, and hence, should not fight about that.”


                      I will post more as I find it.
                      It seems as if the quote you provided above is saying that Wells obtained a DNA sample from a Phoenician sarcophagus. If he is basing his statement about K being a haplogroup of ancient Phoenicians on these samples he obtained, then he can't be referring to yDNA haplogroup K. Current technology is not able to test yDNA from corpses, let alone several thousand year old remains.

                      I suspect that if Wells bases his statement about the haplogroup K relationship to Phoenicians on samples obtained from a sarcophagus, he is referring to mtDNA. It's quite a common practice to test and study mtDNA from ancient graves.

                      Are you sure Wells is referring to K among Phoenicians as a yDNA haplogroup?

                      Mike

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Botrys
                        the old undifferentiated y-haplogroup I.For a hg I fellow, I'm interested to know what you mean by Undifferentiated y-haplogroup I.
                        I mean M170 I, negative for any of the downstream SNPs that signify the subclades of I like I1a, I1b, I1c, etc.

                        That is what my Georgian friend Irubak said he is.

                        Igmayka, on the other hand, is I1b, and I have a couple of male lines in my family tree that are I1a (don't know about all of them obviously).

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Stevo
                          I mean M170 I, negative for any of the downstream SNPs that signify the subclades of I like I1a, I1b, I1c, etc.
                          Yep, there's a good chance that I mighe end up in the undifferentiated y-haplogroup I. Thanks

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Botrys
                            Yep, there's a good chance that I mighe end up in the undifferentiated y-haplogroup I. Thanks
                            Actually, I think that is pretty cool.

                            What is your ethnic background, if you will pardon me for asking?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MMaddi
                              Current technology is not able to test yDNA from corpses, let alone several thousand year old remains.
                              I do not believe that to be true. It depends o nthe state of the corpses. If it has hair, nails, teech, etc...

                              Then again I could be wrong. Not an expert in this field.


                              On another note, what Kristin mentioned about disregarding the Phoenician (Lebanese) history as myth is very much true. It is part of the culture purging (by many invaders specifically the arabists, and stupid western liberal historians) that was and still dominant in the way they record our history.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Stevo
                                Actually, I think that is pretty cool.

                                What is your ethnic background, if you will pardon me for asking?
                                Not at all. I'm a Lebanese Maronite (an Arameo/Suriac Identity)

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