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    If the Male is married to say three wives and has a total of 24 children, what if any effect could this have on the DNA results? Could this increase the mutation rate within a shorter time? Appreciate any help.
    Thanks
    Noah Smothers

  • #2
    The answer is yes, it is entirely possible that in this scenario the mutation rate on the Y chromosome might increase.

    The male's ability to reproduce a perfect copy of his Y chromosome, and pass on this replica to his male progeny, is akin to the functioning of a copy machine:

    The machine is capable of making precise copies many times over, but, just as the machine's precision inevitably declines with use and age, and subsequently begins to lose its ability to generate perfect replicas, so it goes with the production of and passing on of a mutation-free Y chromosome.

    Therefore it is somewhat more likely that a mutation might occur in a son from the second or third wife.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi,

      Excellent question...and excellent answer! I feel I will need this for my participants in the not too distant future.

      Hooray.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Mark
        I need to read more on these mutations, so I can get a better understanding. This may be a silly question, but can two mutations occur in the same generation?
        Noah

        Comment


        • #5
          RE
          The male's ability to reproduce a perfect copy of his Y chromosome, and pass on this replica to his male progeny, is akin to the functioning of a copy machine:

          Since the mutation rate is still understudy and not known within 50% (some say .002 and some say .003) what is the science
          testing behind the "increase" with age? And what higher rate
          would one use at what age?


          RE but can two mutations occur in the same generation?
          Yes - as far as we know the mutations are independant events
          The trasmission of a single one marker from father to son has
          a .002 chance of mutating. Thus one son has 25 x.002 of seeing
          one mutation and 25 x.002 x .002 (approx)) of seeing 2 mutations
          and 25 x.002 x.002 x.002 of seeing 3 mutations.
          Thus if you were to test 10,000 father son pairs (25 markers) you would expect
          to see about 500 one step mutations and maybe one case with
          two one step mutations. I also remember (if I remember right)
          that two step mutations happen at 1/14 the rate of one step mutations. Thus out of 10,000 father son pairs you would expect
          about 36 two step mutations.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Other Spouses

            Originally posted by Nsmother
            If the Male is married to say three wives and has a total of 24 children, what if any effect could this have on the DNA results? Could this increase the mutation rate within a shorter time? Appreciate any help.
            Thanks
            Noah Smothers
            Mark says yes
            But I claim that is not of any value to us.
            Any testing we do on one family will not have enough data
            points to bring out any change in the mutation rate.

            That is untill you have in the order of 10,000 data points.
            That would be 400 births accounted for at 25 markers each.
            Until we get to testing thousands of markers per person
            I claim any single family never be able to make a valid argument
            that "my family is different our mutation rate is higher (or lower)."

            Comment


            • #7
              Would diease or sickness have anything to do with mutations? How about yellow fever, smallpox etc?
              Noah

              Comment


              • #8
                Is there such a thing as maybe a minus or plus mutation? Maybe one brother is one mutation on the plus side and another one mutation on the minus side? So if 12 were exact match's and one was plus and one minus would this make them 2 mutations apart? Or am I way off on this one?
                Noah

                Comment


                • #9
                  RE but can two mutations occur in the same generation?

                  Yes it happens about 1 of every 10,000 male births

                  RE Is there such a thing as maybe a minus or plus mutation?

                  Yes the go both ways +1, -1 (and +2 and -2)

                  RE Would diease or sickness have anything to do with mutations? How about yellow fever, smallpox etc?

                  There has been speculation about this and other things such as
                  age and Xrays and other radation.
                  But I have not seen any results of scientific studies.
                  So for now I will assume a NO for my project.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John
                    Thanks for the quick reply. It seems that the Smothers family has never been at any one time very large, probably in the range of 4,000 -6,000 at any given time. I have also found the name spelled various ways, but generally Smithers and Smothers seem to be the most common. There have been 12 of us take the DNA test and it seems that there is at least two distinct family lines. One totally unrelated to the other. My problem is I am 3 mutations off the closest group, and I am interested in any thing that might have to do with these mutations. I have thought that maybe someone's wife was mistaken as to the father, but then there would be no similiar DNA, if someone was raped same thing. The other thing I have thought of, what if two brothers married the same wife, and she had children by both. I only wish we had more male Smothers that were interested in the DNA, but it doesn't appear so. Thanks again.
                    Noah Smothers

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Noah
                      Re I only wish we had more male Smothers that were interested in the DNA

                      Yes I understand.

                      RE There have been 12 of us take the DNA test and it seems that there is at least two distinct family lines. One totally unrelated to the other. My problem is I am 3 mutations off the closest group,

                      Is that 3 at 12 markers or 3 at 25 markers?

                      Having two or 3 groups out of 12 is better than average.
                      The first 3 Walden men where MANY steps appart.

                      I just got back some results at 3 steps off at 25 markers.
                      I did about 4 days of thinking and analysis and writing.
                      My first posting on this is at this web page
                      http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../w004w005.html

                      Maybe some of the analysis applies to your situation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As I understand it, totally unrelated people can have identical Y-DNA (or mtdna) in a 12 marker test. Certainly they would not be required to be different on all 12 markers. The 12 marker test eliminates people who are not related, by their having too many differences, but it does not, by itself, prove relatedness by identity. You would need to check written records, oral records and probably go for the 25 marker test to see if the 3 mutations are the only 3 in 25. 3 in 12 is generally NOT meaningfully related through the male line. 3 in 25 is still pretty far out, but if everything else checks out, there may have been an adoption or extramarital event, which would explain what appears to be a common ancestor. It is pretty long odds that 3 mutations happened within the time frame of most people's genealogical records. ( Max: Please correct me if I have misunderstood this.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          RE totally unrelated people can have identical Y-DNA (or mtdna) in a 12 marker test.
                          Yes and totally unrelated people can have an identical match AT ANY number of markers.
                          Some call it an "accidental match" other say the haplotype is the same by state and not by ancestry - means the same thing.

                          In the case of a 3 out of 25 marker difference the "most likey" time
                          the MRCA lived is 1000 AD - not very useful for most of us.

                          However there are "Documented Cousins" with a 3 marker difference. That happens about 2% of the time. So with 400 plus
                          Surnames projects in place with FTDNA. And at least one set of cousins per project FTDNA should have at least 8 of these.

                          RE but if everything else checks out,
                          There are a number of things to check and one very strong point is the matching last name. We just dont know how to factor that
                          into the mathamatics.

                          Another is location - are the families near each other in the past?

                          A third thing to check is for any relatively "rare" values for other markers. I look at "rare" as 1% or less. If there is a match there that means a lot more than a match at a marker that is
                          at 80%. A rare marker or two can change the "odds" by a
                          factor of 100 or more.

                          RE there may have been an adoption or extramarital event,
                          Yes then one needs to look at the "genetic" distance to a random
                          male in the place and time of the suspected event.
                          Most random two men will have a genetic distance of 5 to 35

                          So you can calculate the "odds" of a random man being a distance
                          of 3 vs the "odds" of the MRCA being in the last X years.
                          I have not done that - hmmm wonder if there is enough data to do that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Excellent information, Thanks. At the present I have matched 26 surnames, none that are Smothers or Smithers etc. This is the 12 marker test. All the Smothers Smithers families were just a couple of counties apart, usually less than a 100 miles, here is the results of my mutations to the others, there is exact match's of 3, another exact match of three, and another exact match of three, 1 off by 1 mutation to the last three. I believe that the first 6 are related, and the last 4 are not related to the first 6. I am inclined to believe that I am related to the first three, probably within the last 350-500 years, the earliest recorded Smothers I have been able to find is 1550 in England. My problem is I match about 10 per cent of all the European people's DNA, a 25 marker test would not prove any closer relation to these three, but would disprove some of the other surnames I am matching correct?
                            03 Smothers (#5640)
                            03 Smothers II (#5851)
                            03 Smathers (#7815)
                            04 Smothers (#6857)
                            04 Smothers (#6858)
                            04 Smothers (#7258)
                            11 Smothers (#7111)
                            12 Prudhomme (#7123)
                            12 Smothers (#7172)
                            12 Smothers (#8359)

                            I appreciate all the help, I think of myself and the other donors as pioneers of this process, would like to be around another 50 years to see how this all works out.
                            Thanks again.
                            Noah Smothers
                            Last edited by Nsmother; 19 May 2003, 09:27 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              RE " At the present I have matched 26 surnames, none that are Smothers or Smithers etc. This is the 12 marker test"

                              That is not surprising. A 12 marker test is must the same as
                              matching the first 3 letters of your last name.
                              Just think about how many surnames names start with Smi or Smo.

                              Comment

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