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  • #46
    Originally posted by Stevo
    The point is not that we can tell an R1b skeleton from an I1a skeleton. The point is that different kinds of people entered Scandinavia during the prehistoric period. It's not likely they all were of the same y-haplogroup.

    Besides that, Cro-Magnon skeletons are currently thought to be associated with R1bs.

    The oldest skeletons found in Scandinavia, as I understand it, were of the Combe Capelle type, a bit smaller and more slender in build than Cro-Magnons. The finds associated with them were Gravettian, as well.

    The Cro-Magnons came in a bit later but by the Mesolithic Period at the latest.

    N probably entered Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway, and Sweden) last because it is not as numerous there as I1a, R1b, and R1a. It may have gotten there during the Stone Age; it probably did, but it just never got into Scandinavia in the kind of numbers that R1b did.

    The evidence I am talking about comes from the period after the LGM, beginning about 12,000 years ago.
    In what part of Scandinavia the skeletons were found. Remember we are talking about the Scandinavian Peninsula (Norway, Sweden and northwestern Finlan), so for example the bog people in Denmark don't coun't (and I think they are from the Bronze Age anyway).

    Here's an entry about the Nordic Stone Age in your beloved Wikipedia :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Stone_Age

    The Battle Axe culture was also in Finland. What haplogroup were they? If their descendants are still found among Finns, they probably weren't R1b. The Finnish archeologists have thought they were a Baltic tribe. So maybe they were R1a or maybe they left Finland altogether?

    From the Wikipedia article:

    "It is not known what language these early Scandinavians spoke, but towards the end of the 3rd millennium BC, they were overrun by new tribes who many scholars think spoke Proto-Indo-European, the Battle-Axe culture. This new people advanced up to Uppland and the Oslofjord, and they probably provided the language that was the ancestor of the modern Scandinavian languages. These new tribes were individualistic and clearly patriarchal with the battle axe as a status symbol. They were cattle herders and with them most of southern Scandinavia entered the neolithic. However, soon a new invention would arrive, that would usher in a time of cultural advance in Scandinavia, the Bronze Age."
    Last edited by Eki; 15 May 2006, 07:47 AM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Eki
      In what part of Scandinavia the skeletons were found. Remember we are talking about the Scandinavian Peninsula (Norway, Sweden and northwestern Finlan), so for example the bog people in Denmark don't coun't (and I think they are from the Bronze Age anyway).

      Here's an entry about the Nordic Stone Age in your beloved Wikipedia :

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Stone_Age
      The Wikipedia article says nothing to counter what I have been saying.

      I believe the prehistoric archaeological finds come primarily from southern Sweden, Norway, and Denmark (where most of the people have always lived), but some of them are from the north, because I recall the discussion of one of those two peoples - either the Fosna or Komsa - as saying they lived primarily in northern Scandinavia.

      I wasn't speaking of the bog people nor of Denmark alone.

      I do not consider Finland a part of Scandinavia. It differs linguistically, culturally, and genetically from Scandinavia.

      I believe that R1b arrived in Scandinavia during prehistoric times 1) because of the archaeological and anthropological evidence, 2) because there is one heckuva lot of R1b there now and it takes a long time to achieve proportions like that, and 3) there is no evidence of a mass influx of potential R1b-bearing foreigners into Scandinavia during the historical period sufficient to produce the number of male offspring it would take to achieve the high levels of R1b there.

      But I'm open to proof to the contrary.

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      • #48
        Nordic Bronze Age:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

        The populated are in Norway seems to be just the coastal region of southern and central Norway, so considering the current situation where R1b dominates in the southern Norway and I1a dominates in the central Norway, I'd say the Bronze Age culture was I1a and R1b came later and took the southern Norway.

        Of course it's possible that the Bronze Age culture left Norway when the climate got colder:

        From the Wikipedia article:

        "The Nordic Bronze Age was characterized by a warm climate that began with a climate change in circa 2700 BC (comparable to that of present-day Mediterranean). The warm climate permitted a relatively dense population and good farming, for example grapes were grown in Scandinavia at this time. However a small change in climate between 850 BC and 760 BC and a more radical one in circa 650 BC brought in a deterioriating, wetter and colder climate (sometimes believed to have given rise to the legend of the Fimbulwinter).

        It seems likely that the climate pushed the Germanic tribes southwards into continental Europe. During this time there was Scandinavian influence in Eastern Europe (and a thousand years later, the numerous East Germanic tribes that claimed Scandinavian origins (e.g. Langobards, Burgundians, Goths and Heruls) rendered Scandinavia (Scandza) the name womb of nations in Jordanes' Getica).

        In fact, the Scandinavian influence on Pomerania and northern Poland from period III and onwards was so considerable that this region is sometimes included in the Nordic Bronze Age culture (Dabrowski 1989:73).

        Due to the climate change and the loss of population, the nordic countries are generally described as going through a cultural recession at the end of the Bronze Age, lasting for a thousand years until the rise of another advanced civilization in the so-called Viking Age."

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        • #49
          I read the article.

          I still don't see any evidence for the late arrival of R1b in Scandinavia.

          In fact, as the article said, Jordanes referred to Scandinavia as the vagina of nations (that's the word he actually used), meaning that Scandinavia gave birth to or exported (rather than imported) peoples.

          I'm also familiar with the advance of Germanic peoples southward into continental Europe, culminating in die Voelkerwanderung or Migration Period, which coincided with the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.

          Still no evidence of a mass influx of foreigners into Scandinavia during the historic period.

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          • #50
            Let's Talk About Something Else

            Say, let's move on and let this go.

            We're probably not going to agree, and this debate is getting boring.

            It doesn't really matter to me when R1b got to Scandinavia anyway.

            I believe what I believe, but if new evidence turns up that proves me wrong, I'll shrug my shoulders and say, "Whaddya know! Son of a gun!" and update my thinking.

            Heck, I don't even know my own y-haplogroup yet.

            Comment


            • #51
              More fun

              After some weekend reading, I ran across a quote in Nicholas Wade new book "Before the Dawn". On page 240 he states: " The Y chromosomes common among Celts have a particular set of DNA markers known to the geneticists as the Atlantic modal haplotype, or AMH. AMH Y chromosomes are also found, it so happens, in the Basque region of Spain whose inhabitants are thought to represent the original inhabitants of Europe. AMH-type Y chromosomes are particularly common in places like Castlerea in central Ireland, which no invaders ever reached. This suggests that the chromosomes are the signiture of the first hunter-gatherers who arrived in Britian and Ireland toward the end of the Pleistocene ice age 10,000 years ago." He goes on to say that they traveled by boat up the west coast of Europe and settled on each side of it. You all probably knew all that!

              Regarding my OP: German merchants and tradesman moved into Baltic regions as early the 1200s which was one of the factors along with religious conversion which brought the Livonian and Teutonic Knights into the area. It seems more likely that a tradesman or merchant would marry a local tribe woman which would give him some immunity allowing him to survive all the battles. Wade makes my point some what on page 241 when he says that British mitochondrial DNA resembles that from the women of northern Europe suggesting that the Celts got their women or wives by pillage and rapine or exchange.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Sobo43
                German merchants and tradesman moved into Baltic regions as early the 1200s which was one of the factors along with religious conversion which brought the Livonian and Teutonic Knights into the area. It seems more likely that a tradesman or merchant would marry a local tribe woman which would give him some immunity allowing him to survive all the battles.
                This is actually not so different from my own suggestion. When the area definitively fell into Polish-Lithuanian hands, such a merchant might indeed be accepted into the Polish nobility, though perhaps at a very low level--perhaps by purchasing or simply renting a small manor:

                http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm#history
                ---
                5. szlachta czynszowa (rent-paying nobles) - nobles of this group were tenants, or leaseholders of their more prosperous countrymen. It is believed that this group was the most numerous;
                6. szlachta sluzebna (nobles performing menial duties) - nobles of this group held positions of responsibility at estates belonging to magnates or wealthy nobles;
                7. szlachta bezrolna or golota (landless nobles or rabble) - nobles of this group possessed neither land nor serfs. They worked as tenant farmers, labourers, soldiers, domestics, etc;
                8. szlachta brukowa - (street nobility) although in a very small number, this was a group of nobles reduced to eking out a penurious living in the towns.
                ---

                As you can see, I continue to suggest that your surname has the mark of nobility--even if perhaps of one of the low levels cited above. These low levels of nobility, as I mentioned, are more like what we would simply call 'freemen', to distinguish them from serfs.
                Last edited by lgmayka; 15 May 2006, 02:42 PM.

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                • #53
                  Still not buying all of it

                  Thanks for the ref. Emailed my 35/37 German common ancestor as suggested. My son would like us to be related to R. Sobolewski Polish Soccer player. Nobility ? Warming to the idea - How do you nail it down?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sobo43
                    Nobility ? Warming to the idea - How do you nail it down?
                    A Google search of

                    sobolewski nobility

                    yields a lot of interesting leads. Perhaps one goal is simply to establish that your family is related to one of the Sobolewski families that are marked in records as nobility. One advantage of nobility status is that your genealogy may be better recorded than that of a serf family, even though your specific line may be essentially a poor relation of a much wealthier and more illustrious line.

                    In general, I would say to look for ones that point to:

                    - Places in modern-day Lithuania, far northeastern Poland, or neighboring areas of Belarus (as the family grew, members might have had to spread out a little)

                    - German-sounding first names or suffixes (some members of the family may have attempted to retain some German ethnicity)

                    - References to Protestant members of Polish nobility (some members may have still felt sufficiently German in the 16th century to convert to Protestantism when Germany did)

                    There are various associations, forums, and mailing lists for Polish nobility. Once again keep in mind what I mentioned in previous posts: That 10% of Poles were nobility, hence that included a lot of renters, town businessmen, and even laborers. Such noblemen were proud of their 'freeman' political status and voting rights despite their lack of wealth.

                    Also keep in mind that whenever a family had more than one son, either the estate had to be divided (diminishing each son's wealth) or sons other than the first had to do 'something else'--e.g., becoming a priest or merchant. If the merchant then made some bad business decisions, he might even end up rather poor.

                    One important question is, Was your great-grandfather a peasant/serf, merely working a small portion of a plantation owned by a lord? If so, then his noble name may have been 'illegitimate'. (For example, he might have once worked for a noble Sobolewski and took his master's name.) But if he lived in a city, as a shopkeeper or even as a laborer, he might indeed be nobility.

                    So here are my comments on some Google hits:

                    http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-11/1101831402
                    This is a thread on a Sobolewski de Braunhelder who lived in Belarus. The German suffix and the Belarus location could be significant.

                    http://feefhs.org/blitz/HEREDITARY_NOBILITY.htm
                    This mentions that Sobolewski was registered in the Russian Empire as a noble name (after Russia occupied Poland-Lithuania's eastern lands). Again, could be significant.

                    http://cefha.org/pl/gi/nobility/pnpl-1.html
                    This mentions Sobolewski as a surname of Protestant nobility in Poland. Again, could be significant.

                    http://www.szlachta.org/2lista_czlonkow.htm
                    This lists Sobolewski as a Member of the Confederation of Polish Nobility. Perhaps they might have a contact for you?

                    http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/polgen.htm
                    This lists Sobolewski in the Genealogies in the Collection of T.F. Boettger. Again, maybe a contact?

                    http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com.../PDFGENE19.pdf
                    This mentions an Albert Sobolewski living in the Russian-occupied part of Poland in the 19th century.

                    http://www.forumnobilium.net/Rody%20ZSzP.htm
                    This shows the coats-of-arms of members of the Confederation of Polish Nobility, including that of Sobolewski.

                    http://www.wawrzak.org/hrabiowie.htm
                    This mentions Ignacy Sobolewski having the title of Count in the 19th century.

                    http://nobility.by/families/s/sabaliewski.shtml
                    This refers to Sobolewski as a member of the Belarusian nobility in the 19th century.


                    The bottom line here is that as a Sobolewski, you can ask all these societies of Polish nobility, etc., for information on the Sobolewski noble family, for the purpose of determining whether you belong to it. Obviously, you are not on the wealthiest or most famous lines, but you might find that you are somehow related to one of those.

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                    • #55
                      From the Wikipedia article:

                      "The Nordic Bronze Age was characterized by a warm climate that began with a climate change in circa 2700 BC (comparable to that of present-day Mediterranean). The warm climate permitted a relatively dense population and good farming, for example grapes were grown in Scandinavia at this time. However a small change in climate between 850 BC and 760 BC and a more radical one in circa 650 BC brought in a deterioriating, wetter and colder climate (sometimes believed to have given rise to the legend of the Fimbulwinter).

                      It seems likely that the climate pushed the Germanic tribes southwards into continental Europe.

                      Due to the climate change and the loss of population, the nordic countries are generally described as going through a cultural recession at the end of the Bronze Age, lasting for a thousand years until the rise of another advanced civilization in the so-called Viking Age."[/QUOTE] Have the historians or climatologists decided what caused this climate change? Has it been blamed on human activity? If not, why not? Every miniscle change now is blamed on human activity, instead of the vast planetary & climatological changes that have historically happened before & will continue to happen. So when the planet's magnetic poles switch around as has happened before, will humans be blamed? In this modern era of blame & alarmism, it's easier & much more profitable for various interested groups to claim so. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but people either ignore or don't know about historical climate changes. Lots of people act like our climate has always been like this, that it's not supposed to change. "My Opinion". I am not totally unrepentant. I am finally recycling, but I will not give up my SUV. I need to haul the dogs around in it & pull the boat. I have a bad back & the seats are the most comfortable for me. I have tried the fuel economy cars & the seats suck! They are pure torture. CAR MANUFACTURERS! Make a comfortable car with good fuel economy! (that doesn't cost an arm & leg)! Signing off now...rant, rant, rant............

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                      • #56
                        Many Thanks

                        The refs are great! Thanks. Regarding climates - Living near the Grand Canyon, I see evidence every day of the impact of even subtle changes in the climate on the Native American cultures (1150 - 1250). I'll do my part ( Honda Civic Hybrid) will it do any good ? I don't know. It's like praying, does it do any good? I don't know but it makes me feel good!

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                        • #57
                          I don't think we should look at climate change as an either/or phenomenon; it can be natural or man-made. I don't think the fact that there have been natural climate disasters (from the human perspective) excuses humans from abusing the environment.

                          Way to go Sobo! I drive a Toyota Prius
                          Judy

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