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  • Surname - Haplogroup don't match

    I have an interesting quandary. My surname is Polish. My Great Grandparents are from Siauliai, Lithuania but my haplogroup is R1b1. I've got this one DYS 391 of 10 which doesn't quite match the Atlantic R1b. So how do I get my ancestors from England, Ireland and Scotalnd to Lithuania? Any ideas?

    sage

  • #2
    Maybe your ancestor was a Scottish mercenary who served the Swedish Kings in Livonia (Lithuania) and Poland in the 16th and 17th centuries. See the 16th and 17th century parts of the following article:

    http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...eden/index.htm

    Comment


    • #3
      This article describes some principal variants of R1b:

      http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r..._in_europe.htm

      This article breaks down R1b according to SNP subhaplogroups:

      http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/s21.htm

      This map shows that R1b is somewhat common in Poland, and occurs occasionally in the Baltic republics too:

      http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lgmayka
        This article describes some principal variants of R1b:

        http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r..._in_europe.htm

        This article breaks down R1b according to SNP subhaplogroups:

        http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/s21.htm

        This map shows that R1b is somewhat common in Poland, and occurs occasionally in the Baltic republics too:

        http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf
        Good post, Igmayka.

        Why posit mysterious Scots mercenaries when there are enough native Poles and Balts to fit the bill?

        http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

        Besides, since some believe that all the R1b in Scandinavia got there only since the Middle Ages, the Scots would have been too busy impregnating women there to bother about Poland and Lithuania!

        Comment


        • #5
          What's the point of that map here? It shows just the haplogroups, not the haplotypes. If Sobo43's ancestors had been in Poland and Baltia for thousands of years, he would probably have matches in Poland and Baltia too, not just Scotland, England and Ireland, wouldn't he. Even if not that many native Poles and Balts may not test their DNA at FtDNA, many Americans are of Polish or Baltic heritage and likely some of them would be a close match to Sobo43.
          Last edited by Eki; 13 May 2006, 01:03 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Eki
            If Sobo43's ancestors had been in Poland and Baltia for thousands of years, he would probably have matches in Poland and Baltia too, not just Scotland, England and Ireland, wouldn't he. Even if not that many native Poles and Balts may not test their DNA at FtDNA, many Americans are of Polish or Baltic heritage and likely some of them would be a close match to Sobo43.
            No. You grossly overestimate how many Polish- and Baltic-Americans are interested in (and can afford) genetic testing, and you underestimate the amazing popularity of genetic testing among descendants of the British Isles. (Look at the statistics in the Ysearch database.) I am Polish-American, of I1b haplogroup, yet at 12 markers, my closest matches (1 off) were rooted in Russia, Romania, and Croatia. My impression from the original post is that Sobo43 only has 12-marker results at this point.

            At 25 markers, my closest matches were 5 away (i.e., 20/25 matches), but at least were rooted in Poland. I heartily recommend that Sobo43 upgrade to at least 25, and preferably 37 or even 59, markers. He will then have a much better picture of how far back his Polish-Lithuanian ancestry goes.

            Sobo43 could alternatively consider a deep-subclade test, which might also give such information.

            On the other hand, if Sobo43 is still matching the Atlantic modal haplotype at 25 or 37 markers, he may indeed have that ancestry.

            EDIT: A quick Ysearch database check.

            R1b, Eastern Europe => 127 entries

            R1b, British Isles => 2674 entries

            R1b, Americas (i.e., immigrated centuries ago, probably almost all British Isles) => 2294
            Last edited by lgmayka; 13 May 2006, 07:47 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think some folks also seriously underestimate the amount of time or the number of males it would take to bring the level of any one y-dna haplogroup in a region up to significant levels.

              More daughters are born than sons, and sons, not daughters, are the ones who pass on y-dna.

              A relatively small number of Scottish mercenaries, who enter a country for a short time and then leave, would have a negligible impact.

              The significant presence of a haplogroup in an area is indicative of either 1) a long residence there, or 2) a massive influx of invaders/immigrants, or 3) both 1 and 2.

              If there is no historical record of such a massive influx, then it is safe to conclude that the bearers of that haplogroup have been present in the area for a long long time.
              Last edited by Stevo; 13 May 2006, 09:22 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Stevo

                A relatively small number of Scottish mercenaries, who enter a country for a short time and then leave, would have a negligible impact.
                Sobo43 may disagree with me, but I think he is a "negligible impact". We are talking about genealogy here, not anthropology or genography.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lgmayka
                  No. I am Polish-American, of I1b haplogroup, yet at 12 markers, my closest matches (1 off) were rooted in Russia, Romania, and Croatia.

                  R1b, Eastern Europe => 127 entries

                  R1b, British Isles => 2674 entries

                  R1b, Americas (i.e., immigrated centuries ago, probably almost all British Isles) => 2294
                  So few entries from Eastern Europe, yet YOU had the closest matches from Russia, Romania and Croatia (Eastern Europe). Don't you think that Sobo43 would also have at least one close match from Eastern Europe if HIS ancestors had lived there thousands of years like YOUR ancestors probably have?

                  I have a 19/25 match with descendants of Charles Carter Lee, brother of General Robert E Lee. I don't claim his ancestors came from Finland or mine from England, we most likely had a common ancestor in pre-historic Norway. People have always been on the move. Not just in historic or just pre-historic times.
                  Last edited by Eki; 13 May 2006, 11:22 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sobo43, I suspect that your Ysearch username is TMMN6. When I ask the database for matches to you from Eastern Europe, I get one exact match (Dascola from Italy) and 11 1-off matches:

                    Appel from Lithuania
                    Koehn from Ukraine
                    Kozlovsky and Froese from Russia
                    Lokay and Lokay from the Czech Republic
                    Preis from Hungary
                    Belgieri, Belgieri, Amato, and Lauria from Italy

                    Notice that one of the 11/12 matches is even from Lithuania. However, he has a German-sounding name, a possible indication of Prussian patrilineal descent. (The Prussians, and their ancestors the Teutonic Knights, fought with the Lithuanians and Poles for centuries over the land in that area.) Note that according to the haplogroup map I cited earlier, R1b approaches 50% in Germany. You may have to brace yourself for the possibility that your own patrilineal ancestor is Prussian/Teutonic.

                    The bottom line, though, is that you can't tell very much with only 12 markers. As you saw, you have some close matches in Eastern Europe, but you also have dozens of similar matches in the British Isles and who knows where else. You really need to upgrade to at least 25, and preferably 37 or even 59, markers if you want to winnow out other ethnic groups.

                    On the other hand, if you were merely looking for close relatives, you almost certainly do not have any in the Ysearch database right now. Maybe in a few years.
                    Last edited by lgmayka; 13 May 2006, 12:13 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sobo43, if your patrilineal descent is indeed from the Teutonic Knights, here is an article on them:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights
                      ---
                      The Teutonic Order (German: Deutscher Orden, "German Order"; Latin: Ordo domus Sanctæ Mariæ Theutonicorum Ierosolimitanorum, "Order of the Teutonic House of Mary in Jerusalem"; Hungarian: Német Lovagrend, "German Knighthood"; Polish: Zakon Krzyżacki, "Order of the Crossbearers") was a German crusading military order under Roman Catholic religious vows formed at the end of the 12th century in Acre in Palestine. They wore white surcoats with a black cross.

                      After Christian forces were defeated in the Middle East, the Order moved to Transylvania in 1211, but were expelled in 1225. The knights moved to Prussia, where they created the independent Teutonic Order state. After basing itself in Prussia, the Order became involved against the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in brutal campaigns in which it was often the aggressor.

                      In 1410 a Polish-Lithuanian army decisively defeated the Order and broke its military power at the Battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg). The Order steadily declined until 1525 when Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg resigned and converted to Lutheranism to become Duke of Prussia.
                      ---

                      Thus, it is possible that your patrilineal ancestor was on the losing side of the great Battle of Grunwald. He may have then taken a Polish wife and settled down. This would have occurred in the 15th century, before the introduction of surnames into Poland-Lithuania; hence, a later ancestor naturally took a Polish surname.

                      Incidentally, the religious issue is one reason I am more skeptical of a 17th-century Swedish or Scottish connection. 17th-century Swedes and Scots were Protestant, and since wars in that century were often sparked by religious differences, it is unlikely that a Swedish or Scottish soldier would simply become Catholic, marry a Catholic wife, and settle down in Poland-Lithuania. The 15th century, in contrast, was before the Protestant Reformation. The Teutonic Knights were Catholic just as the Poles and Lithuanians were; hence, no religious conversion would have been required.
                      Last edited by lgmayka; 13 May 2006, 12:27 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sobo43, again assuming that you are TMMN6, I see that in Western Europe, you have six exact 12/12 matches:

                        Misner, Custer, Lapp, Swope, and Misner in Germany
                        Fattorini in Switzerland

                        But to be "fair," you have plenty of British Isles matches also. An upgrade to 25, 37, or 59 markers should narrow down your closest matches.

                        Nevertheless, my own suspicion at this moment is that you are patrilineally descended from a Teutonic Knight who lost the Battle of Grunwald.
                        Last edited by lgmayka; 13 May 2006, 12:41 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          DNA 12 to 37

                          Igmayka:
                          Thanks for the info but I have taken the testing to 37 w/o any appreciable narrowing or expansion of the data base. I don't think that more testing would be cost effective. Thank you everyone for the great imput and ideas. I am still open to providing more info if it would be helpful.

                          Sobo43

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lgmayka
                            Incidentally, the religious issue is one reason I am more skeptical of a 17th-century Swedish or Scottish connection. 17th-century Swedes and Scots were Protestant, and since wars in that century were often sparked by religious differences, it is unlikely that a Swedish or Scottish soldier would simply become Catholic, marry a Catholic wife, and settle down in Poland-Lithuania. The 15th century, in contrast, was before the Protestant Reformation. The Teutonic Knights were Catholic just as the Poles and Lithuanians were; hence, no religious conversion would have been required.
                            Good point. Peoples' religious, political and ethnic feelings and prejudice were important factors in people selecting their mates (or their family selecting them for them). I think the animosity between Finns and Russians was the main reason why R1a hasn't spread more into Finland (now I'm talking about anthropology and genography).
                            Last edited by Eki; 13 May 2006, 12:51 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sobo43
                              Thanks for the info but I have taken the testing to 37 w/o any appreciable narrowing or expansion of the data base.
                              If you are indeed TMMN6 in the Ysearch database, could you re-upload your full set of markers to the database? Right now it only shows your first 12. I really would like to help you if I can.

                              By the way, your ancestral city of Siauliai has a direct connection to the Teutonic Knights:

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0iauliai
                              ---
                              At first developed as a defence post against the raids by the Teutonic and Livonian Orders. After the battle of Grunwald in 1410, the raids stopped and Šiauliai started to develop as an agricultural settlement.
                              ---

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