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  • #16

    I guess we have to find what is reliable to believe in rather than insist on 100% certainty. For instance, most chairs are reliable--I don't overthink the dynamic structure and balance of the chair before taking a seat. Is faith and/or science reliable or infalible? What are the implications of you don't trust faith or science or people, for that matter?


    • #17
      Wax on, wax off

      Originally posted by Marttinen
      Is faith and/or science reliable or infalible?
      Reliable? For the most part.
      Infalible? No, because people are involved.

      Originally posted by Marttinen
      What are the implications of you don't trust faith or science or people, for that matter?

      A wise man once said, if you want to know the truth, don't believe others, and don't believe yourself. Whatever is left is what IS. His point being, our beliefs can sometimes get in the way of seeing what IS. So, maybe it is better not to believe anything for a while, see what IS, and then make a choice.


      • #18
        Nancy, don't worry too much about supposed inconsistencies between the Bible and science. True religion and true science are never incompatible. Truth is the only thing that matters. Even science takes a little faith sometimes. Only blind faith should be avoided at all costs. Faith guided by reason is a pretty good way to approach things when the facts seem right, but not able to be proved at the time. There is not one religion that has not 'evolved' to a certain degree. Some have completely changed their most basic beliefs while others have modified theirs to conform with previously unavaliable knowledge. Truth in important matters is not relative or subjective, it is just truth.


        • #19
          "I prefer to keep apples and oranges in their own basket.."

          but they're still both fruit, different yet the same.

          The one thing I tell my son about things written in the bible is that the knowledge we have is from oral tradition, especially the old testament and we all know about Chinese whispers. Some of the gospels were written long after the events and recollection of happenings are not so clear when time has passed. There may well be a basis in fact but the story possibly changed and was embelished in the telling.


          • #20
            I don't like discussing religion in this forum. Believe me, it will only make people angry. We're not all going to agree.

            I believe the things stated in the Nicene Creed, but I didn't come to the FTDNA Forum to try to convert anybody and make a Catholic out of him.

            Personally, whether or not a literal Adam and Eve ever existed is not of central importance to my faith. I also do not concern myself over the details of the Creator's method of creating the universe and all living things.

            This will probably be my one and only post in this thread.

            Let's all do each other a big favor, folks: remember that everyone here has a right to believe what he or she thinks is best. We should do our best not to insult, anger, and annoy one another.


            • #21
              I think the intent of the thread has more to do about a religious person trusting DNA results and science more so than about religion in particular. I know there have been some before who came to these forums just to bash the beliefs of others, but I do not see that here. Not intentionally anyway.


              • #22
                Can't we find a comfortable spot in the tension between faith and science? Remember "Fiddler on the Roof's 'On the other hand...?'"

                Doing any serious historical work on our planet means that one has to confront both faith, science and keeping an open mind to surprises. I notice the Bible invoked many times and basically categorized in the realm of "faith." It is a source of faith as well as being one of the ancient historical records that humanity has produced.

                While sitting in a seminary class in the 80's our guest lecturer, Dr. William Dever, said that near east discoveries from every archeological expedition were checked with the Biblical record. His rule was that procedure in doing excavations must be scientific, but his personal faith won't change by the results he comes up with. When pressed as to whether Noah's ark could be found, he said that he didn't personally believe that it ever existed, but even if it was found intact on Ararat or if it was never found it would not affect his faith either way.

                I have friends working on digs like the Madaba projects in Jordan. Their scientific method "wins some" and "looses some" when it comes to physically affirming faith. They have discovered some names of OT Kings of neighbouring countries to Israel and Judah, yet no evidence as of yet (also read less and less) that the Hebrews travelled en mass from Egypt.


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  ... but I didn't come to the FTDNA Forum to try to convert anybody and make a Catholic out of him..
                  Wow, where did that come from?

                  Originally posted by Stevo
                  We should do our best not to insult, anger, and annoy one another.
                  I'm just not seeing that at all. Did I upset someone? Did someone upset you, Stevo? I didn't think this little discussion would hurt anyone. I think it's interesting. I'm just really... I don't know where ... Did I miss a bad post or something?
                  Last edited by Paul_Sheats; 11 May 2006, 01:20 AM.


                  • #24
                    ADAM & EVE

                    No More. Let's Not Do This. I Made A Huge Mistake Bringing This Subject Up And Again, I Am So Sorry!! Did You See How Brave I Was At The Beginning? Now I Want To Crawl Back To Where I Came From. Your Replies Were Brilliant And I Got So Much From What I Read. You Are Truly Wonderful People And I Thank You For Responding So Intelligently! I Think We Should Get Back To More Important Questions Because The One I Asked Cannot Be Answered As Simply As I Thought. In Time, It Will All Come Together And Make More Sense To The Average Person, Like Myself. Thanks Nan


                    • #25
                      It has poped up before..and it will pop up again.

                      I wish people in all religions and beliefs in the world can come into the Genographic Project and not be faced with Urasian Adam and Eve.

                      For me it shows a specific religious exposure of the people who put the project together. if i had another belief system and I came into the project..I would look at the Urasian Adam and Eve reference and I would know this is a project written by bible influenced people. Do we need Eurasian Adam and Eve?. I think they could have done better.

                      Discussion is another thing. There is nothing wrong with discussing things in the forum. My concern is the insult the project itself may have on others.

                      just my opinion


                      • #26
                        That is one thing about forums that I don't like. It's hard to know the "tone" or emotion behind a post. I think there are times things are taken the wrong way. I vote for using more smilies


                        • #27
                          See what people with dry sense of humour, who don't laugh at their own jokes, have to deal with all the time?

                          P.S. I will clobber the next person who think's he's creating an affinity bond by winking during a conversation.

                          It's too hard for me to resist this one, but point of Bible scholarship:

                          Eve was called 'woman' in the garden God built in the eastern part of Eden (there was no place called 'The Garden of Eden'). After the fall and while the first couple was accepting their judgements in Genesis 3:20 "Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all people everywhere."

                          The next question: Did the biblical Adam have a belly button? This is significant while discussing geneology (which the bible considers important--look at the space it takes up in scripture).


                          • #28
                            Belly buttons and missing ribs

                            i once read an article by a bio prof . who thought he was kool by asking new students "do all men miss a rib". now maybe most christians uneducated in bio think that. he would berate the student who defended it saying men dont miss one therefore the bibles wrong. and get a chuckle at the kids expense

                            well a one time operation on me for gallbladder removel doesnt mean my kids dont have a gallbladder. I have this favorite saying of mine. no where in the bible does it say god choose the smartest animal. the hitchhikers guide to the universe agrees.In fact the bible refers to men as sheep. no dumber animal exists cept the lemming and we copy them well alot.

                            now most men get so into what they are into they miss the world going by . this is especialy strong in three occupations preaching,scientists, but especially politicians. Maybe you can figure out what they all have in common?

                            Life is special and my pleasure is to accumalte as much knowledge as this dumb brain can focus on. Sure i dont agree with alot of it . This is when that saying of mine comes to mind. It wont hurt humans to shock their egos by understanding our limitations and stupidities. Genes do this well, how many people or should i say enlighted humans know 90 sommething percent of our genes are shared with the tree sloth. MY WIFE SEES THE RESEMBLENCE .
                            look at the picture in the corner and see the eyes the sloth type shadows .
                            enough of the self examination.
                            How about something novel here listening to each other and getting a gustault [ or understanding the drift of the ideas] that we all have . we learn by sharing and that is how we keep dangeous movements unstarted


                            • #29
                              Jim said:
                              "now most men get so into what they are into they miss the world going by . this is especialy strong in three occupations preaching,scientists, but especially politicians. Maybe you can figure out what they all have in common?"

                              (1)They live on Earth.?

                              (2)They are usually on a payroll?

                              (3)They are made up of men and women?


                              • #30
                                Or some like me will go through the last days, second coming, be redeemed in paradise, take residence in the asteriod acclimatized as my reward in heaven--and still be yakking here, biding my time on the forums, waiting for the results of another deep clade test to come in.