ADAM & EVE

[NANCY JONES]

I am confused! If our DNA goes back as far as I am told, what about ADAM & EVE being put on earth 6,000 years ago. If that is bad, NOAH's family were supposed to be the only humans left on the earth after the great flood after A&E!! My DNA is the H haplogroup and Helena lived about 20,000 years ago!!! I asked a church going friend of mine and according to him, DNA is not accurate!!!! But.....How did the population of the world's features change, and how did the population of our earth expand so very quickly? I just got back from Egypt after spending two weeks looking over ancient ruins and writings. The Sphinx is at least 5,000 years old and one of the Pyramids is 5100 years old!!!
My church going friend thinks the Egyptian ruins are not really as old as we are told. I am not anti Bible just confused by what I have learned lately after reading, "The Real Eve"!!!! A nice and easy explination? Nan

[lgmayka]

This is really not the place for detailed theology discussions, but I can give you my own view, which assumes that the primary purpose of Genesis is theological and moral, not historical or scientific, and hence certain historical and scientific details are simplified or even symbolic.

1) The 'begat's in Genesis are not really direct father->son generations, but more like chains of dynasties or royal houses. Hence, hundreds or even thousands of years might have passed between Methuselah and Lamech. The numbers of years listed for those times are to be taken symbolically, not literally.

2) While our mitochondrial Eve who lived 150,000 years ago might well be the Eve mentioned in Genesis, our common Y-chromosome ancestor who lived 70,000 years ago is more aptly compared to Noah, not Adam. Y-DNA evidence cannot easily reach past Noah of 70,000 years ago because all men today are descended from him and not from any of the other male lines from Adam, who have all died out. (See below.)

3) The Deluge mentioned in Genesis is apparently a conflation (merging) of two different events and accounts. One was a volcanic winter around 70,000 years ago, caused by the incredibly massive eruption of Mount Toba, which came close to rendering the human race extinct and indeed resulted in the survival of only one male human line. The other was the flooding of the Black Sea around 8000 years ago, when the Mediterranean suddenly broke through the Bosporus, adding a large layer of saltwater to what had been a freshwater lake and thereby greatly enlarging the Black Sea's area and flooding its surrounding lands. This latter flood was locally disastrous but did not seriously threaten humanity as a whole.

Each of the two events may have had a Noah-type person. Before the volcanic winter, our y-DNA Noah might have been told to build a large storehouse of grain, plants, and livestock--a kind of ark, but for protection against the volcanic ash and subsequent winter, not against water per se. Before the flooding of the Black Sea, the later Noah-character would indeed have built a boat--but it would have had to carry only enough provisions until he and his family could reach unflooded land.


On the other hand, if one believes that all historical and scientific details of Genesis are literally factual, then one must somehow argue against a large body of contrary historical, archeological, and now even genetic evidence. This forum is really not the place for such an attack against multiple branches of science.

[Marttinen]

It has always been a challenge to try and balance faith with science. For instance, inside the Egyptian pyramids there are drawings depticting several distinct ethnic groups. There must have at least been time for the various physical features to develop. This means the earth has to be more than 6,000 years old. On the other hand, if the history of man on earth goes back multiple tens of thousands of years, why do place-names of areas go back a couple of thousand years? Curiously, the bible never mentions the pyramids.

The Genographic Project anticipates surprizes. So far, their results are close enough to the accounts in Genesis 10 to not cause too many conflicting thoughts. To me, the issue is the difference between a Short Earth History (a few tens of thousands of years) and a Long Earth History (millions of years). I'm not talking about the age of the rocks, but of life on this planet. As a christian minister who takes a fairly literalistic view of scripture, I go for the "Short Earth." I don't have much of a problem with, say, a few tens of thousands of years.

Another thing for Christians to ponder: Many modern theologians call the first 11 chapters of Genesis (creation to the worldwide flood) an explaination worked out during the inter-testamental times (after Zecheriah/Malachi and before Jesus' time) by scribes from Southern Israel (Judah), redacting some Northern Kingdom Priestly writings in the process. Yet Jesus often quoted from the first 11 chapters of Genesis as if they were authoritative and factual. If Jesus acknowledged the account as "truth," shouldn't those who follow Jesus?

I figure there always is a hook that we can hang our doubts on but the bible is more interested in the character of the Creator than making detailed accounts of how He created. Even Paul acknowledged in 1 Cor. 13, "for now we see though a glass, darkly."

[Jim Denning]

I am confused! If our DNA goes back as far as I am told, what about ADAM & EVE being put on earth 6,000 years ago. If that is bad, NOAH's family were supposed to be the only humans left on the earth after the great flood after A&E!! My DNA is the H haplogroup and Helena lived about 20,000 years ago!!! I asked a church going friend of mine and according to him, DNA is not accurate!!!! But.....How did the population of the world's features change, and how did the population of our earth expand so very quickly? I just got back from Egypt after spending two weeks looking over ancient ruins and writings. The Sphinx is at least 5,000 years old and one of the Pyramids is 5100 years old!!!
My church going friend thinks the Egyptian ruins are not really as old as we are told. I am not anti Bible just confused by what I have learned lately after reading, "The Real Eve"!!!! A nice and easy explination? Nan

nowhere in the bible does it say 6000 yrs or that god picked the smartest animal
it also doesnt say that the clay wasnt in a form of another animial.
the first pyramid the great one is 2400 yrs old
and the rest are bad copies
dna started with A. and migrated north maybe> thats all pretty much based on lucy and orirrin [sp?] makes lucy an unrelated branch which would mean the starting point might not be south africa. that doesnt matter really
all dna does is catagorize you into groups of a tree A is the trunk and B,,D,C,E,F, BRANCHED OFF AND TURNED INTO G,H,I,J,K,L, THEY TURNED INTO m,N,O,P,Q, all the way to x

The flood again the dates arent correct a bishop in europe used son of to do a tree not knowing if son meant son of or gggrand son. in many cases it did mean ggggrand son. the reason for the flood and this is in the bible is to cleanse the dna[blood] of the creatures created in geneisus 6 who were made by the union of angels to women called nephelium [giants]
noah was the only line not contaminated by the genes of the nephilium.a keltoi kettle found in switzerland has noah oriental his wife caucasuian [ the mark of cain] his sons a mixture and their wives black white and oriental. thats four of the lines of mtdna

we dont know for sure but not to worry in the end science and its creator will agree. thats why they continue to do research at least they get smarter would that preachers would do more learning and less babbleing. it still amusing that the only group worse then both is politicians . who of course have ALL the answers

[Jim Denning]

3) The Deluge mentioned in Genesis is apparently a conflation (merging) of two different events and accounts. One was a volcanic winter around 70,000 years ago, caused by the incredibly massive eruption of Mount Toba, which came close to rendering the human race extinct and indeed resulted in the survival of only one male human line. The other was the flooding of the Black Sea around 8000 years ago, when the Mediterranean suddenly broke through the Bosporus, adding a large layer of saltwater to what had been a freshwater lake and thereby greatly enlarging the Black Sea's area and flooding its surrounding lands. This latter flood was locally disastrous but did not seriously threaten humanity as a whole.

Each of the two events may have had a Noah-type person. Before the volcanic winter, our y-DNA Noah might have been told to build a large storehouse of grain, plants, and livestock--a kind of ark, but for protection against the volcanic ash and subsequent winter, not against water per se. Before the flooding of the Black Sea, the later Noah-character would indeed have built a boat--but it would have had to carry only enough provisions until he and his family could reach unflooded land.


On the other hand, if one believes that all historical and scientific details of Genesis are literally factual, then one must somehow argue against a large body of contrary historical, archeological, and now even genetic evidence. This forum is really not the place for such an attack against multiple branches of science.

you should read velikovski who einstien was reading when he died
he wrote two books one worlds in collision and the other earth in upheavel which might cause you to rethink this

insidently his books were so threatening that all the professors told his publisher that if they continued to sell the books they would not assign any of the publishers books to their student . book companies make most of their money off school books. the publisher sold a book 10 weeks as #1 on the new york times best seller list to a paperback company ballentine. mccarthyism before mccarthy 1953 i think.

dna is the story of man you cant tell the story with only science or religion you need to include everything history and all the other facets of human development and existance

no one facet has the whole story

[Jim Denning]

Curiously, the bible never mentions the pyramids.
."

isaiah 19:19
IN that day there shall be an altar of the lord in the midst of the land of eygpt and a pillar at he boarder there of to the lord

[fmoakes]

Jim,
I just went back and checked. This is the DNA and Genealogy Thread of the Family Tree DNA Forum. Might we be getting a bit off topic here?

[Jim Denning]

Jim,
I just went back and checked. This is the DNA and Genealogy Thread of the Family Tree DNA Forum. Might we be getting a bit off topic here?

from my experiance nah lol
genes run everything including the heads we thing or dont think with

its your and mine story there are no boundrys lol
max must love that

[NANCY JONES]

ADAM & EVE

Hello again, So sorry I brought this topic up. I shouldn't have! In 1942 I started to attend Catholic school and was taught to never look at the Bible although we had Bible History every day. For some reason, we were not supposed to attend any other church other than our own as well. We were slapped in the face and knuckles so often that we were afraid to go against their wishes! I have never read the Bible until the other day and I am now in my 70's! On the way to Egypt a couple of weeks ago, I met a gentleman on the plane and I let him have my window seat so he too could enjoy the scenery. We started to talk about different things and genealogy came up. I told him about the book "THE REAL EVE", and his face turned bright red, as he quoted passages from the Bible, etc. I really had no idea what a sensitive subject this is. I know now to keep quiet about the whole thing and go on as before. I did the DNA test and found other family members who match perfectly and it's been so fun! Thank you Jim for informing me about the 6,000 years. Really, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I am so sorry!! Nan

[Victor]

Hello again, So sorry I brought this topic up. I shouldn't have! In 1942 I started to attend Catholic school and was taught to never look at the Bible although we had Bible History every day. For some reason, we were not supposed to attend any other church other than our own as well. We were slapped in the face and knuckles so often that we were afraid to go against their wishes! I have never read the Bible until the other day and I am now in my 70's! On the way to Egypt a couple of weeks ago, I met a gentleman on the plane and I let him have my window seat so he too could enjoy the scenery. We started to talk about different things and genealogy came up. I told him about the book "THE REAL EVE", and his face turned bright red, as he quoted passages from the Bible, etc. I really had no idea what a sensitive subject this is. I know now to keep quiet about the whole thing and go on as before. I did the DNA test and found other family members who match perfectly and it's been so fun! Thank you Jim for informing me about the 6,000 years. Really, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I am so sorry!! Nan

Nancy,

You have nothing to be sorry about! Your question is valid and shows your genuine interest in learning about your DNA tests.

In this forum everyone has a right to express their opinions and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. There are many points of view.

In the end everything boils down to a belief, even those who take the scientific approach believe in theories and hypothesis, because science can only prove the nature of things up to some point and from there on it is just speculation.

The main difference between a religious belief and a scientific belief is that religion is static dogma that almost never changes while science is dynamic knowledge that is continually changing with every new discovery.

Some people have their religious beliefs about creation so ingrained within their selves that when faced with contradicting scientific facts, such as DNA and genetics, try to reconcile both views in a unifying interpretation.

In my opinion, trying to reconcile religion and science is a risky business. If you twist a religious belief to fit scientific knowledge you run the risk of being accused of blasphemy or sacrilege. And if you bend a scientific fact to armonize with your religious belief you can be considered a charlatan and a dabbler. What a dilemma!

I prefer to keep apples and oranges in their own basket..

Victor

[EBurgess]

Nan you should be commended for still being on the path to knowledge. The Real Eve is a great book and if it upsets people thats just too bad.

On the flip side many people accept science factoids without checking up on the references. In that regard they are no different than the religious folk.

I encourage you to post because I wonder about how many others out there like you have questions but are intimidated.

Maybe there should be a section "DNA and religious implications".

[Paul_Sheats]

Jim,
I just went back and checked. This is the DNA and Genealogy Thread of the Family Tree DNA Forum. Might we be getting a bit off topic here?

It's less off-topic than Homer Simpson in the batch calendar threads.
Who appointed you lord of the forum?

[M.O'Connor]

I had said many times the the National Geno Program was wrong to insult our intelligence by having to use the names Adam and Eve to describe our first Eurasian Ancestors. The use seems rather lame to me in such a multi-cultural world Project.

my opinion

[Jim Denning]

Nan you should be commended for still being on the path to knowledge. The Real Eve is a great book and if it upsets people thats just too bad.

On the flip side many people accept science factoids without checking up on the references. In that regard they are no different than the religious folk.

I encourage you to post because I wonder about how many others out there like you have questions but are intimidated.

Maybe there should be a section "DNA and religious implications".

AND if we dont talk about it people might not know that there are answers which meet both spheres of thought parameters

[TSBinLV]

More Ramblings - sorry

Thank you Victor.

The way I see it, science is merely a set of METHODS we use for determining, or estimating degrees of certainty of our explanations of reality. Whenever experiments or logic can be thoughtfully devised and carried out and/or explained, science can be useful. Otherwise, we have no choice but to choose something to believe and go with it. Technically, if there is no evidence one way or the other for our belief, it may be difficult for someone else to argue that we are wrong, but that doesn't mean we are right either. We just don't have much certainty one way or the other.

I wish more of us could/would distinguish between what is conjecture and what can be supported by evidence. How many of the historical accounts in the Judeo/Christian texts can be supported with evidence? I don't study that stuff, so I don't know, but if there is no evidence, wouldn't it help to admit that our belief is just that - a belief?

And when enough evidence is accumulated to suggest that a belief is wrong, I believe it is in our best interest to let go of the belief, and go with what is supported by research. For many this is very hard to do. I have a lot of respect for people who are willing to CONTINUALLY REVISE their ideas based on accumulated evidence / improved logic.

On the other hand, perhaps nothing can be known with absolute certainty, and we are certainly limited as to how much we can know. But more and more things can be known with enough certainty to have practical value. Science and experience are our only tools for accumulating this confidence, but require time and work. Very often, we don't have the time needed to prove or disprove something, so we just have to pick somethng to believe and go with it. What else are we going to do?