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  • DNA matches with other surnames

    I'm hoping that someone can help me! I submitted a sample of my Arnold family DNA and that was compared with other Arnolds as well as other surnames who are involved with their own DNA studies. I have two different surnames that are very close genetically and I'm confused as to "how close" these people are. Can anyone explain the significance of these results and tell me just how close these families are to my Arnolds?

    MY ARNOLD DNA
    Zachariah W. Arnold 1798 SC
    Abbeville, SC to Tippah Co., MS to Young Co., TX
    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 28 16 17 18 18

    ARNOLD – 24/25 match
    Rev. Zachariah W. Arnold 1773
    Lauren Co., SC to Monroe Co., MS to Panola Co., TX
    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 28 16 17 18 19

    GERMAN – 23/25 match
    Robert Jarman 1680 MD
    Calvert, MD to Craven/Randolph Co., NC to Tippah Co., MS
    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 28 16 16 17 18

    ARNOLD – 22/25 match
    James Arnold and Martha Atkinson
    Mecklenburg/Lunenburg, VA to Randolph/Granville Co., NC to Kentucky
    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 16 16 18 18

    DAVENPORT – 22/25 match
    Martin Davenport
    Spotsylvania/Louisa Co., VA to Randolph Co., NC to Abbeville, SC to Kentucky
    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16 17 18 18

  • #2
    Looks like your two Zachariah Arnolds could be cousins. And the James Arnold is close enough in results to warrant research. The only way to know exactly how close they are is through conventional genealogy.
    The matches with other surnames cannot be given the same weight as same surname matches, unless you have some evidence to believe that they might be related. They all could just share a more common haplotype, thus their common ancestor would be far back in time perhaps before surnames existed. You can check the probability chart at FTDNA to see the range of generations apart each one of these could be. I would, however, be curious about the 24/25 match between James Arnold and Martin Davenport since they also were living in the same areas in 3 different states.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for your reply, I really do appreciate your help! There is one thing I did not point out in my original query though. All these families (Arnold, Jarmon and Davenport) migrated at the exact same time, to the exact same areas, in 5 different states! It was not just the James Arnold and Martin Davenport family that did this. I have traced each of these families from Colonial Virginia, into North Carolina, South Carolina, Mississippi and finally Texas over a period of many,many generations.

      Could the female's DNA have any influence on the close matches on my results that I posted? I ask because there is a strong possibility that my Arnolds descended from a William Arnold and Mary Davenport, who's parents were William Davenport and Ann Arnold. Would these two marriages between the Arnold and Davenport families, so close to each other, show a result like this?

      Comment


      • #4
        Karolyn, your family shows exactly what I have questioned in the What *Proves a kinship? thread. When families lived in the same, probably small, communities during the same time frame, I think the odds of a close DNA match meaning a relationship would be greatly enhanced, reguardless of surname.

        You have a very interesting question about the mtDNA as well. To get Mary Davenport's mtDNA, you'd need to have an all daughter line. (??) That would be trickier in most families. It might also be harder to prove with mismatch that one of the men down the line hadn't had a second wife who was the mother of some of the daughters. I'm anxious to see one of the expert's thoughts on this.

        Kay

        Comment


        • #5
          Understanding matches with different surnames

          Greetings!

          Please look at the new link that we provide at your individual pages, at the bottom of the "Y-DNA Match" page: "Understanding matches with different surnames"
          Max Blankfeld
          Vice-President and COO @ Family Tree DNA
          A Gene by Gene Company

          Comment


          • #6
            When I look at my results page, I do not see the "Understanding matches with different surnames" link - am I missing something?

            Thanks,

            T

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by trhill
              When I look at my results page, I do not see the "Understanding matches with different surnames" link - am I missing something?

              Thanks,

              T
              It is at the bottom of your "Y-DNA Matches" tab
              Max Blankfeld
              Vice-President and COO @ Family Tree DNA
              A Gene by Gene Company

              Comment


              • #8
                All do respect Max, but on my results page, kit #10695, there is nothing on the bottom of my Y-DNA Matches tab.

                Is the because I didn't match anyone?

                Thanks,
                Terry

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by trhill
                  All do respect Max, but on my results page, kit #10695, there is nothing on the bottom of my Y-DNA Matches tab.

                  Is the because I didn't match anyone?

                  Thanks,
                  Terry
                  Ok. It's not there because your group is set to private and therefore, there is no comparison with other surnames which means no need to "Understanding matches with other surnames".
                  Now, we explained in our newsletter that it's up to each person to check or uncheck the box "Private", but many haven't done so. Once you uncheck and allow your results to be compared with the rest of the database, the "Understanding matches with other surnames" will show up, because then it makes sense to understand it...
                  If you'd like I can uncheck the "private" for you. Just let me know.
                  Max Blankfeld
                  Vice-President and COO @ Family Tree DNA
                  A Gene by Gene Company

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ahh, I see. I have changed it and now I see what you were talking about.

                    Thanks Max,

                    Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This also applies for a 24/25 match and different surname?

                      Originally posted by admin
                      Greetings!

                      Please look at the new link that we provide at your individual pages, at the bottom of the "Y-DNA Match" page: "Understanding matches with different surnames"
                      Does this also apply if the match is 24/25 and the surname differs? I match a Kershner at ybase and I am Boyd.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Answered my own question -- Convergence

                        Haplotypes: Convergence
                        =======================

                        A Haplotype is the 12 Marker result from testing the Y Chromosome. Some Haplotypes are common, with a high frequency of occurrence and some Haplotypes are rare, with a low frequency of occurrence.

                        Many people have common Haplotypes, which means that they would expect to find matches to those who do not have their surname. This occurs because we were all at one point related. As the different branches of the Adam + Eve tree evolved throughout time, mutations occurred, forming different Haplotypes. Thousands of years later, you have many different Haplotypes. Due to these mutations, you could have two branches that mutate to an identical Haplotype. This is called convergence.

                        If your Haplotype matches an individual with a different surname, and your genealogy research
                        shows no evidence of an extra-marital event or adoption, your match may be the result of
                        Convergence.

                        The example below shows convergence between the ABC surname and the XYZ surname, using just 3 markers to keep the example simple. Notice how the mutations over time bring two different Family Lines to the point that they match.

                        Time ABC XYZ
                        1000 A.D. 12 24 15 14 25 13
                        1200 13 24 15 14 25 13
                        1400 13 24 15 14 25 14
                        1600 13 24 15 14 24 14
                        1800 13 24 15 13 24 14
                        2000 13 24 14 13 24 14

                        Convergence explains why a haplotype will match others with a different surname.

                        DNA testing for genealogy is not a substitute for genealogy research, but is instead a companion. Results that match must be considered in light of the genealogy research. If you match someone with a different surname, most likely there wasn't an adoption or extra marital event, and your match may be the result of convergence.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          24/25 Boyd haplotype near match with Kershner haplotype

                          Dear John Boyd:

                          I am the project coordinator for the Kerchner / Kershner, et al, Surname Project. Please contact me privately and let me know specifically which Kershner haplotype you have the near match (24/25) with. Where are you located? Have you upgraded your results to 37 markers. I am in the process of upgrading most of my surname project test results to 37 markers. Here is my Kerchner / Kershner Surname Project URL: http://www.kerchner.com/kerchdna.htm

                          Charles Kerchner
                          Emmaus PA USA
                          http://www.kerchner.com/contact.htm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Shared haplotype may be result of shared ancestor who predates adoption of surnames

                            John,

                            Two people can have different surnames and have the same 12 marker haplotype because their most recent common ancestor lived say 100 or so years before the adoption of surnames in Europe, say approximately 1000 years ago. The two male lines could share the same common male ancestor in Europe, and thus the same 12 marker haplotype, but different surnames because the common ancestor's descendants adopted different surnames as surnames became required in Europe.

                            Also there is sometimes another more recent explanation. Surnames can look very different to the inexperienced genealogist but in reality they could be the same surname. Example: Zimmerman in German translates to Carpenter in English. An immigrant from a German speaking area of Switzerland to a German speaking area of the New World, as in parts of Pennsylvania, would have kept the Zimmerman surname. But another related male emigrating to an English speaking area of the New World may have changed his surname to the English version of Carpenter, especially if he was a carpenter by trade. So an exact 12 marker match between a Zimmerman and a Carpenter in the USA today may not on the surface look like they share the same ancestor/surname, but in reality they may, and thus could share a common Zimmerman ancestor of recent genealogical interest.

                            As you point out, extramarital events are not the only explanation for people having 12 for 12 matches and not sharing the same surname, i.e., convergence is a possiblity. But there are other, possibly even more relevant to the genealogist, explanations besides convergence. I gave two examples above. Of course it is highly unlikely that a pre-surname era common ancestor could ever be found. But in the example of the Zimmerman / Carpenter scenario, the common male ancestory may be able to be found.

                            More markers should be tested. In most cases the exact match disappears for 12/12 matches with different surnames if the surnames are not variants in different languages of the same original surname.

                            Charles Kerchner
                            http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm


                            Originally posted by john.boyd
                            Haplotypes: Convergence
                            =======================
                            A Haplotype is the 12 Marker result from testing the Y Chromosome. Some Haplotypes are common, with a high frequency of occurrence and some Haplotypes are rare, with a low frequency of occurrence.

                            Many people have common Haplotypes, which means that they would expect to find matches to those who do not have their surname. This occurs because we were all at one point related. As the different branches of the Adam + Eve tree evolved throughout time, mutations occurred, forming different Haplotypes. Thousands of years later, you have many different Haplotypes. Due to these mutations, you could have two branches that mutate to an identical Haplotype. This is called convergence.

                            If your Haplotype matches an individual with a different surname, and your genealogy research
                            shows no evidence of an extra-marital event or adoption, your match may be the result of
                            Convergence.

                            The example below shows convergence between the ABC surname and the XYZ surname, using just 3 markers to keep the example simple. Notice how the mutations over time bring two different Family Lines to the point that they match.

                            Time ABC XYZ
                            1000 A.D. 12 24 15 14 25 13
                            1200 13 24 15 14 25 13
                            1400 13 24 15 14 25 14
                            1600 13 24 15 14 24 14
                            1800 13 24 15 13 24 14
                            2000 13 24 14 13 24 14

                            Convergence explains why a haplotype will match others with a different surname.

                            DNA testing for genealogy is not a substitute for genealogy research, but is instead a companion. Results that match must be considered in light of the genealogy research. If you match someone with a different surname, most likely there wasn't an adoption or extra marital event, and your match may be the result of convergence.
                            Last edited by cfkerchner; 19 November 2004, 10:05 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cfkerchner
                              John,

                              Two people can have different surnames and have the same 12 marker haplotype because their most recent common ancestor lived say 100 or so years before the adoption of surnames in Europe, say approximately 1000 years ago. The two male lines could share the same common male ancestor in Europe, and thus the same 12 marker haplotype, but different surnames because the common ancestor's descendants adopted different surnames as surnames became required in Europe.

                              Also there is sometimes another more recent explanation. Surnames can look very different to the inexperienced genealogist but in reality they could be the same surname. Example: Zimmerman in German translates to Carpenter in English. An immigrant from a German speaking area of Switzerland to a German speaking area of the New World, as in parts of Pennsylvania, would have kept the Zimmerman surname. But another related male emigrating to an English speaking area of the New World may have changed his surname to the English version of Carpenter, especially if he was a carpenter by trade. So an exact 12 marker match between a Zimmerman and a Carpenter in the USA today may not on the surface look like they share the same ancestor/surname, but in reality they may, and thus could share a common Zimmerman ancestor of recent genealogical interest.

                              As you point out, extramarital events are not the only explanation for people having 12 for 12 matches and not sharing the same surname, i.e., convergence is a possiblity. But there are other, possibly even more relevant to the genealogist, explanations besides convergence. I gave two examples above. Of course it is highly unlikely that a pre-surname era common ancestor could ever be found. But in the example of the Zimmerman / Carpenter scenario, the common male ancestory may be able to be found.

                              More markers should be tested. In most cases the exact match disappears for 12/12 matches with different surnames if the surnames are not variants in different languages of the same original surname.

                              Charles Kerchner
                              http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm
                              Here is some more relevant material copied from DNA Heritage:

                              ================================================== =====
                              What are 'multi-copy' markers?

                              A primer pair will usually locate only one specific region on the DNA strand. A multi-copy marker occurs when a primer pair locates more than one region.

                              The following are examples of multi-copy markers:

                              DYS385a, DYS385b

                              DYS464a, DYS464b, DYS464c, DYS464d

                              DYS459a, DYS459b

                              YCAIIa, YCAIIb


                              They can be very problematic when making comparisons between two people. For example, DYS464c in one person may not be the same DYS464c in another person.

                              Comment

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