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Samaritan 12 Markers Y-DNA Near Matches

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  • Samaritan 12 Markers Y-DNA Near Matches

    My paternal lineage is from Spain. According to my FTDNA personal page, I don't have any matches for my 12 markers Y-DNA.
    I do have five near (two step mutations) matches, instead: one from each of the following countries: Belarus, England, Israel, Poland and Scotland
    I find it curious.
    Anyway, what really draws my attention is the fact that I have seven Samaritan near matches (three step mutations). I think it's quite interesting and intriguing.
    Anyone else in the same circumstances?

  • #2
    Did FTDNA predict your haplogroup?

    Frankly, 12 markers isn't enough to tell much of anything. At 12 markers, my closest matches were in Croatia and Russia. Only at 25 markers did Ysearch show my nearest matches to be Polish (as befitting my Polish ancestry). At 37 markers, on the other hand, my nearest matches were near the Carpathian Mountains in southern Poland, as I would have expected.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by lgmayka
      Did FTDNA predict your haplogroup?

      Frankly, 12 markers isn't enough to tell much of anything. At 12 markers, my closest matches were in Croatia and Russia. Only at 25 markers did Ysearch show my nearest matches to be Polish (as befitting my Polish ancestry). At 37 markers, on the other hand, my nearest matches were near the Carpathian Mountains in southern Poland, as I would have expected.
      I'm E3b, SNP tested.

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      • #4
        Robe3b, I also have a number of near matches with Samaritans, 9/12, 10/12 and 11/12. I am predicted at J2 although the Samaritan family I "match" is J1. Samaritans are essentially an offshoot of the Jewish religion and share the same genetic lines as Jews. (They regard themselves as Jewish) In my case, the similarity may be overstated due to the possible convergence of haplotypes. Actually, Samaritan dna has been extensively studied by both Shen of Stanford and by Hammer of Ftdna and Arizona. In fact you can find the name of the family you match in the Shen study. (So much for the protection of subjects' anonymity)
        Last edited by josh w.; 6 May 2006, 11:38 AM.

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        • #5
          A couple of links to genetic studies related to the Samaritans:

          http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Shen2004.pdf

          http://hammerlab.biosci.arizona.edu/...Tamir_2003.pdf

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          • #6
            650 people in the small group?

            I think it is amazing that people can prove that they are actually directly related the Samaritans?

            Or can they?.

            So many groups spread and battled thoughout that region.
            i don't think anybody can actually prove they are related to the Samaritans of old.

            just my opinion.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by M.O'Connor
              650 people in the small group?

              I think it is amazing that people can prove that they are actually directly related the Samaritans?

              Or can they?.

              So many groups spread and battled thoughout that region.
              i don't think anybody can actually prove they are related to the Samaritans of old.

              just my opinion.

              Hi M. O'Connor, I wonder if you read the Summary of the paper by B. Bonné-Tamir, M. Korostishevsky, A. J. Redd, Y. Pel-Or, M. E. Kaplan and M. F. Hammer:

              "The Samaritan community is a small, isolated, and highly endogamous group numbering some 650 members who have maintained extensive genealogical records for the past 13–15 generations. We performed mutation detection experiments on mitochondrial DNAs andYchromosomes from confirmed maternal and paternal lineages to estimate
              mutation rates in these two haploid compartments of the genome. One hundred and twenty four DNA samples from different pedigrees (representing 200 generation links) were analyzed for the mtDNA hypervariable I and II regions, and 74 male samples (comprising 139 links) were typed for 12 Y-STRs mapping to the non-recombining portion of the Y chromosome (NRY). Excluding two somatic heteroplasmic substitutions and several length variants in the homopolymeric C run in the HVII region, no mutations were found in the Samaritans’ maternal lineages.
              Based on mutations found in Samaritan paternal lineages, an estimate of a mutation rate of 0.42% (95% confidence interval of 0.22%–0.71%) across 12 Y-STRs was obtained. This estimate is slightly higher than those obtained in previous pedigree studies in other populations. The haplotypes identified in Samaritan paternal lineages that belong
              to the same haplogroup were used to estimate the number of generations elapsed since their most recent common ancestor (MRCA). The estimate of 80 generations corresponds with accepted traditions of the origin of this sect."
              It seems that Samaritans have grounds to believe what they believe.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by robe3b
                My paternal lineage is from Spain. According to my FTDNA personal page, I don't have any matches for my 12 markers Y-DNA.
                I do have five near (two step mutations) matches, instead: one from each of the following countries: Belarus, England, Israel, Poland and Scotland
                I find it curious.
                Anyway, what really draws my attention is the fact that I have seven Samaritan near matches (three step mutations). I think it's quite interesting and intriguing.
                Anyone else in the same circumstances?
                I don't have any Samaritan near matches. Most of mine belong to central or eastern European countries.

                There's an important observation I made and it has to do with the number of markers used to make the comparison.

                Like Igmayka's previous comment, I also believe "12 markers isn't enough to tell much of anything". What's more, I think these 12 marker matches can be decidedly misleading. For example, in our DNA project some believed that our near (two step) Ashkenazi 12-marker matches in Belarus was a clear indication of our Jewish origin. We then ran a 12-marker based ysearch query for E3b haplotypes located not only in Belarus but in all Eastern Europe. And sure enough we did find a couple of near matches at 2 or 3 steps and others at greater genetic distances. The interesting part came when we ran the same query at 25-markers! There they were, many of the same haplotypes (and surnames) from the first query but at a genetic distance of 9 and up.

                So what does this tell us? I checked FTDNA's chart Interpreting Genetic Distance and found out that at a genetic distance of 6 it is possible that we shared a common ancestor in excess of 5,000 years ago.
                19/25 You are not related and the odds greatly favor that you have not shared a common male ancestor with this person in excess of 5,000 years
                Genetic distances over 6 aren't even on the chart, but I can guess that the TMRCA would be near 8 or 9 thousand years. Well before biblical times.

                In conclusion, these 12 marker matches hint only at very loose relationships with certain geographical regions and peoples. We need to strive for higher resolution matches to make more meaningful deductions. We have to watch out ourselves and warn others in our projects about quickly jumping to conclusions. In the search for our deep roots we must not let our natural eagerness and inclination towards the exotic push us into farfetched explanations.

                I know you're not making any conclusion, of course. It is just a general comment for new participants.

                Victor

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                • #9
                  I just wonder who is who in the area that seemed to go through a number of changes. With invaders and refuge seekers.

                  There were many tribes associated with Sarmatians. Some suspect there is a connection with the Scythians. One small group is not enough to define the make-up of the people refered to as the Sarmatians.
                  http://www.unrv.com/provinces/sarmatia.php

                  my opinion.
                  Last edited by M.O'Connor; 6 May 2006, 06:04 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by M.O'Connor
                    I just wonder who is who in the area that seemed to go through a number of changes. With invaders and refuge seekers.

                    There were many tribes associated with Sarmatians. Some suspect there is a connection with the Scythians. One small group is not enough to define the make-up of the people refered to as the Sarmatians.
                    http://www.unrv.com/provinces/sarmatia.php

                    my opinion.
                    Valuable opinion, Mr. O'Connor, and a great link, although the discussion in this thread was about the Samaritans, not Sarmatians.

                    Best Regards.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't think that anyone was implying that Robe3b was closely related to Samaritans or Jews. My comments about convergence pointed in the opposite direction. On the other hand, such a connection cannot be ruled out . The picture is complicated because the Ftdna sample has an overrepresentation of Jewish participants.
                      For what it's worth all the haplotypes and haplogroups of the Samaritans point more to a Near Eastern origin (J or E3b) rather than one from central Asia. The Near East includes more than Israel and it is possible that Samaritan population included migration from nearby areas. In fact, the separation between Samaritans and the rest of the Jews occured becaused they apparently collaborated with outside (Near Eastern) invaders. The historical record suggests that they practiced endogamy perhaps because of their outgroup status.
                      Last edited by josh w.; 6 May 2006, 07:10 PM.

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                      • #12
                        P.S. Because of the similarity in spelling, e.g. Samarkand, some have suggested that there was a Jewish migration to central Asia. I'm not sure if there is evidence of a migration in the opposite direction. I think that the Samaria region of ancient Israel received that name before the fifth century B.C. It is mentioned in the Old Testament ("Kings").
                        Last edited by josh w.; 6 May 2006, 07:35 PM.

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                        • #13
                          well 900-700 BC is a time indicated at this site for the introduction Scythians and Sarmatians.

                          if you look in the left column under "Time-Line" and then "Silk road"

                          http://www.silk-road.com/toc/index.html

                          There is also reference to other groups and tribes.
                          Last edited by M.O'Connor; 6 May 2006, 07:57 PM.

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                          • #14
                            There are two main problems with the Scythian explanation:
                            1. According to Jewish records, Samaria was already in existence around 900 B.C. Records of an Assyrian invasion around a century later are consistent with Assyrian evidence. Further there is no record of a Scythian invasion of Israel around that time. The name appears to be Canaanite in origin although in is phoenetically similar to the central Asian name.
                            2. From the current Samaritan dna research, not only the Ydna pattern but the mtdna haplogroups are more consistent with Near Eastern than central Asian origins.
                            Last edited by josh w.; 6 May 2006, 09:43 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Another thing worth noticing is that Samaritans, according to Maternal and Paternal Lineages of the Samaritan Isolate: report show a prevalence of haplogroups E and J.

                              The SNP typing revealed that lineage C was YAP+
                              and a member of haplogroup E-P2. The other three
                              Samaritan lineages (M, Z, and D) carried the 12f2a-8
                              kb allele and were members of haplogroup J. The Z and
                              D lineages had the derived allele at M172 and, hence,
                              were members of haplogroup J-M172. Lineage M was
                              ancestral at M172 and was part of paragroup J∗ .
                              On the other hand, the Sarmatians, if we take the Ossetians as their current day descendants, show predominantly haplogroup G. Although they also include a few E and J.

                              Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians

                              My impression and what I've been able to gather from a quick search tells me that the Sarmatians aren't related to the Samaritans.

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