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  • Hadrian's Wall

    Did anyone watch the History Channel piece on Hadrian's Wall last night?

    It was extremely interesting in its description of the life of the soldiers and the civilians in the villages that grew up near the forts along the wall.

  • #2
    There were a lot of Roman soldiers from all over the Empire posted in Britain. The Romans controlled Britain for about 350 years. That's a long time. Certainly they made a genetic impact on the population.

    Of course, after the legions left Britain in A.D. 410, the Germanic Anglo-Saxons began their conquest/colonization of what is now England (Angle-land), and many of the natives were driven west and north. Some fled Britain altogether, going to Armorica in northwestern Gaul (France), which came to be called Brittany.

    Comments?

    Did anyone besides me see the show on Hadrian's Wall?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Stevo
      There were a lot of Roman soldiers from all over the Empire posted in Britain. The Romans controlled Britain for about 350 years. That's a long time. Certainly they made a genetic impact on the population.

      Of course, after the legions left Britain in A.D. 410, the Germanic Anglo-Saxons began their conquest/colonization of what is now England (Angle-land), and many of the natives were driven west and north. Some fled Britain altogether, going to Armorica in northwestern Gaul (France), which came to be called Brittany.

      Comments?

      Did anyone besides me see the show on Hadrian's Wall?
      bull!!

      if thats all true where is the same genetic make up as say germany austria rome palestine syria?

      the romans where never excepted or their offspring and when they were kicked out their offspring went too. the british didnt like barbarians living in their midst

      what you say?

      britany [ the island] we christian before any other church above ground
      their king who was allowed to live in rome was christian when the barbaric ceaser ruled the throne. it was his house the church in rome was started in by his wife pricilla. no once the barbaric people left so did their protegy

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jim Denning
        bull!!

        if thats all true where is the same genetic make up as say germany austria rome palestine syria?

        the romans where never excepted or their offspring and when they were kicked out their offspring went too. the british didnt like barbarians living in their midst

        what you say?

        britany [ the island] we christian before any other church above ground
        their king who was allowed to live in rome was christian when the barbaric ceaser ruled the throne. it was his house the church in rome was started in by his wife pricilla. no once the barbaric people left so did their protegy
        Jim -

        Do you honestly believe that after 350 years in Britain all traces of Roman DNA disappeared with the evacuation of the legions?

        After 25 years service in the army, a soldier received Roman citizenship and often some land to go with it. As the History Channel piece explained, many of the Roman soldiers assigned to Britain retired in villages there with their families, which included British wives and half-Brit offspring.

        The legions that withdrew in 410 would have had to drag a whole heckuva lot of folks with them to completely remove the Roman DNA from Brittania.

        BTW, when I say "Roman," I mean soldiers from all over the Empire who were in legions assigned to Britain, not just Italians. There were Gauls, Germans, North Africans, Syrians, Sarmatians, Spaniards, etc., etc.

        Look at the haplomap of western Europe, Jim. One does see pretty much the same basic groups there. http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

        In Palestine and Syria there is enough of a haplogroup assortment to argue compellingly for a continued Roman signature, which, undoubtedly, there is.

        At present, how does one sort through all of the various Y-haplogroups to tell who is the descendant of a Roman soldier and who is the descendant of a native or of a later arrival?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jim Denning
          bull!!

          if thats all true where is the same genetic make up as say germany austria rome palestine syria?

          the romans where never excepted or their offspring and when they were kicked out their offspring went too. the british didnt like barbarians living in their midst

          what you say?

          britany [ the island] we christian before any other church above ground
          their king who was allowed to live in rome was christian when the barbaric ceaser ruled the throne. it was his house the church in rome was started in by his wife pricilla. no once the barbaric people left so did their protegy
          Oh my God...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stevo
            Look at the haplomap of western Europe, Jim. One does see pretty much the same basic groups there. http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf
            Interesting map, Stevo. About the fist map it says: The data in this map is supposed to represent the situation before the recent European expansion beginning about 1500 AD..., but of the second map there is nothing akin said. You happen to know how many people from each nation or region that were tested for determining the European map?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LeoLoS
              Interesting map, Stevo. About the fist map it says: The data in this map is supposed to represent the situation before the recent European expansion beginning about 1500 AD..., but of the second map there is nothing akin said. You happen to know how many people from each nation or region that were tested for determining the European map?
              Leo -

              I don't really know the details of the testing behind those maps. I guess I should check around and see if that information is available.

              My own opinion is that one would be hard pressed to find a person of western European ancestry who is not descended from the Romans, at least in part. The Romans controlled western Europe for too long for that not to be true.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LeoLoS
                Interesting map, Stevo. About the fist map it says: The data in this map is supposed to represent the situation before the recent European expansion beginning about 1500 AD..., but of the second map there is nothing akin said. You happen to know how many people from each nation or region that were tested for determining the European map?
                It looks to me like the European map is just a close-up of the European information contained in the first map, the world map, so that caption you described would still apply.

                I'll see if I can't find more info on the population study behind the maps.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here is the man behind the maps: Dr. J. Douglas McDonald, Professor of Chemistry at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.

                  Here is a second site that briefly mentions Dr. McDonald's work on genetic genealogy. It doesn't really give a great deal of detail behind those maps, but there is an extensive set of source citations that follows the maps and the charts in the original document.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think us Brits are a mixed bag..too many groups of people invaded and raped and pillaged making us lose our true culture (which I feel very strongly about!) but some did flee to Amorica, there is enough of our old culture imprinted there to prove that (I went last year) standing stones, druids, Celtic style designs. It's not dissimliar to the feel and landscape of Cornwall.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by burto
                      I think us Brits are a mixed bag..too many groups of people invaded and raped and pillaged making us lose our true culture (which I feel very strongly about!) but some did flee to Amorica, there is enough of our old culture imprinted there to prove that (I went last year) standing stones, druids, Celtic style designs. It's not dissimliar to the feel and landscape of Cornwall.
                      We know many Romano-Britons fled to Armorica from De Excidio Britanniae (Concerning the Ruin of Britain), by the 6th century British monk St. Gildas, who himself went to Armorica.

                      Breton, the Celtic language of Brittany (Armorica) in northwestern France, is most closely related to Welsh.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stevo
                        Jim -

                        Do you honestly believe that after 350 years in Britain all traces of Roman DNA disappeared with the evacuation of the legions?

                        After 25 years service in the army, a soldier received Roman citizenship and often some land to go with it. As the History Channel piece explained, many of the Roman soldiers assigned to Britain retired in villages there with their families, which included British wives and half-Brit offspring.

                        The legions that withdrew in 410 would have had to drag a whole heckuva lot of folks with them to completely remove the Roman DNA from Brittania.

                        BTW, when I say "Roman," I mean soldiers from all over the Empire who were in legions assigned to Britain, not just Italians. There were Gauls, Germans, North Africans, Syrians, Sarmatians, Spaniards, etc., etc.

                        Look at the haplomap of western Europe, Jim. One does see pretty much the same basic groups there. http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

                        In Palestine and Syria there is enough of a haplogroup assortment to argue compellingly for a continued Roman signature, which, undoubtedly, there is.

                        At present, how does one sort through all of the various Y-haplogroups to tell who is the descendant of a Roman soldier and who is the descendant of a native or of a later arrival?

                        look at the map and the colors red is predomninant in britany including france and parts of spain . but not the same or even close to the same % s

                        see just before thier downfall, the romans where killed in large numbers they were an occuping army not any real intergrating army they didnt share any customs in fact they persacuted any celtic customs the reason the romans when to britian was to wipe out the druid knowledge system read did the apostle paul visit britian by r.w. morgan.

                        lets take ireland occupied by an army much closer to the natives for 600+ years. how well did they assimulate.if today it was open season on british loyalists what do you think would happen . some people say the isralies got out of the occupied areas so next time they go in they can shoot and not worry about jewish settlers. the russians are not welcomed with open arms in the balkin states are they? is it kurdistan where the rebels hit the russian schools. So you think a brit didnt know a roman from a brit. when they burnt christians on stakes to light their gardens and the brits where the oldest christian chuch in history.its this lack of knowing humans that make king arthur a roman. only an american could do that lol. the retreat of the romans was not peaceful if they had helicopters to push off of aircraft carriers they would of as they returned from hanoi or london. ask the south vietnamesse if the north soldiers knew who was on our side.
                        Last edited by Jim Denning; 4 May 2006, 12:04 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jim Denning
                          look at the map and the colors red is predomninant in britany including france and parts of spain . but not the same or even close to the same % s

                          see just before thier downfall, the romans where killed in large numbers they were an occuping army not any real intergrating army they didnt share any customs in fact they persacuted any celtic customs the reason the romans when to britian was to wipe out the druid knowledge system read did the apostle paul visit britian by r.w. morgan.

                          lets take ireland occupied by an army much closer to the natives for 600+ years. how well did they assimulate.if today it was open season on british loyalists what do you think would happen . some people say the isralies got out of the occupied areas so next time they go in they can shoot and not worry about jewish settlers. the russians are not welcomed with open arms in the balkin states are they? is it kurdistan where the rebels hit the russian schools. So you think a brit didnt know a roman from a brit. when they burnt christians on stakes to light their gardens and the brits where the oldest christian chuch in history.its this lack of knowing humans that make king arthur a roman. only an american could do that lol. the retreat of the romans was not peaceful if they had helicopters to push off of aircraft carriers they would of as they returned from hanoi or london. ask the south vietnamesse if the north soldiers knew who was on our side.
                          unlike britain rome never pretended to want to make everyone roman. all they cared about was are they peaceful lambs. can we rule them and not have revolts. it took alot for the romans to finaly have enough of the jews .
                          thye just didnt assimulate. while the british made the commonwealth and east indians were to be british. no such nonsense was ever done by rome. you can have your sandheidren just dont revolt

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You can't chase them all out. some hide real good.


                            I started to read this on England Y stuff. i haven't finnished yet so I don't really have an opinion. Feel free to browse, read, or comment on this sites findings.

                            http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf
                            Last edited by M.O'Connor; 4 May 2006, 12:36 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by M.O'Connor
                              You can't chase them all out. some hide real good.


                              I started to read this on England Y stuff. i haven't finnished yet so I don't really have an opinion. Feel free to browse, read, or comment on this sites findings.

                              http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf

                              unfortunatly in most cases thats exactly what happens chase out or killed

                              Comment

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