R1a Viking or Polish?

[Svein Davidsen]

Vikings in the west of Britain.

The Vikings tried, and tried, to go west, but Alfred, the cake-burner, finally defeated them in AD 878 in ?? in Wiltshire. In Ireland they were thrown/forced out of the trading ports they had set up by the various Irish kings because there were too few of them. The last stronghold, Dublin, was lost in 902. (or the Irish would say "re-gained"!!)

[Stevo]

But first you need to find out why they stayed in the eastern parts of Britain and didn't go west

You mean to Wales and Ireland?

That's a darned good question.

I'm sure there must be an answer.

Perhaps the boats that went to Wales and Ireland were from different districts where R1a was not as populous?

[Eki]

We need to get together and write a book on the Slavonic element in the Viking invasion and settlement of Great Britain.

But first you need to find out why they stayed in the eastern parts of Britain and didn't go west

[Stevo]

Bluetooth's son Sweyn Forkbeard married the daughter of Mieszko I of Poland. Their son Canute (Canute the Great) became King of England, Norway and Denmark. A contingent of Polish troops took part in the invasion of England.

If my memory serves me, approximately 25 percent of male norwegians are R1a. About 60 percent of this is of Slavic origin. The remaining forty percent appears to be Norwegian specific and may have its origin in the Altai region of Central Asia. I suspect that a good percentage of Danish and East German R1a is also of Slavic origin.

Entirely correct.

It is well known that the Slavonic tribes advanced into what is now eastern Germany early in the Middle Ages.

Funny thing, though: how come you and I seem to be the only ones who know that a lot of the R1a in Britain is probably of Polish origin?

We need to get together and write a book on the Slavonic element in the Viking invasion and settlement of Great Britain.

[Zaleski]

I think they were.

The second wife of Viking King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark was Tova or Tovi, the daughter of King Mistivoj of the Wends, who inhabited the Baltic coast of what are now Poland and northeastern Germany. Mistivoj and Harald were military allies, as well as relatives.

Bluetooth's son Sweyn Forkbeard married the daughter of Mieszko I of Poland. Their son Canute (Canute the Great) became King of England, Norway and Denmark. A contingent of Polish troops took part in the invasion of England.

No doubt some of the British R1a is Norwegian, especially in the North (Shetlands, Orkneys, Scotland), but I suspect a lot of the Danelaw R1a is Wendish, i.e., Polish.

If my memory serves me, approximately 25 percent of male norwegians are R1a. About 60 percent of this is of Slavic origin. The remaining forty percent appears to be Norwegian specific and may have its origin in the Altai region of Central Asia. I suspect that a good percentage of Danish and East German R1a is also of Slavic origin.

[Stevo]

They could be both, couldn't they?

I think they were.

The second wife of Viking King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark was Tova or Tovi, the daughter of King Mistivoj of the Wends, who inhabited the Baltic coast of what are now Poland and northeastern Germany. Mistivoj and Harald were military allies, as well as relatives.

The Wends were pretty warlike in their own right. They had to be to hold their own on the shores of the Baltic in the Middle Ages. In 983, for example, they sacked and burned the North German city of Hamburg.

I read somewhere that Wends were among the conglomeration of tribes corporately known as Anglo-Saxons and took part in the invasion and settlement of Britain following the evacuation of Roman troops from there in A.D. 410.

My own belief is that Wends also accompanied the Danish Vikings in their later invasion and settlement of England.

No doubt some of the British R1a is Norwegian, especially in the North (Shetlands, Orkneys, Scotland), but I suspect a lot of the Danelaw R1a is Wendish, i.e., Polish.

[lgmayka]

The original poster apparently has gone. We were unable to convince him that further markers would indeed have answered his question.

[M.O'Connor]

They could be both, couldn't they?

[Zaleski]

Does anyone know if there are SPECIFIC MARKERS that can distinguish an R1a Haplogroup from Norwegian vs. Polish

Dave Zincavage developed an Excel spreadsheet defining R1a modals for various populations. Dave has a link to the spreadsheet on the Rootsweb site. On your search engine line type: dave zincavage r1a spreadsheet . Open the page that appears and click on the file with the xls extension.

[Stevo]

The Wends are also known as Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

They speak Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian.

I didn't know the Sorbs were descendants of the Wends. Interesting.

It seems the Sorbs are just a remnant of what was once a pretty widespread and fairly powerful Slavic tribe or group of tribes.

[lgmayka]

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I remember reading that there were Wends among the various tribes that made up the Anglo-Saxon invaders of Britain beginning in the 5th century. The Wends were a Slavic tribe from the Baltic coast of what is now Poland and northeast Germany.

The Wends are also known as Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

They speak Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian.

[lgmayka]

Have you taken the DNA Tribes test? My relative took it and got quite a few Polish matches. This was a huge surprise. I'm curious to know if people who know they are Polish get the same results or if the test is off.

No, I haven't. Looks interesting, though.

[Stevo]

If you upgrade to 25 or 37 markers, you will get a much clearer picture.

I myself am of Polish descent. At 12 markers, my closest match was someone in Romania (!). At 25 markers, my three closest matches (20/25) in the Ysearch database were all Polish, spread across that country. At 37 markers, my three closest matches (31/37) in that same database were all clustered around the Carpathian mountains in southeastern Poland (although one of the three was actually on the other side of the border, in Ukraine).

That's the area my wife's mother is from. She is from Lvov (Lviv) in Ukraine. Her mother was a Kaminsky (Kaminskaya - feminine). My mother-in-law speaks Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, and German (but not much English, unfortunately).

[Stevo]

I wish I could remember where I read this, but I remember reading that there were Wends among the various tribes that made up the Anglo-Saxon invaders of Britain beginning in the 5th century. The Wends were a Slavic tribe from the Baltic coast of what is now Poland and northeast Germany.

Has anyone thought of attributing some of that R1a in Britain to them?

BTW, your paternal grandfather could very well be your biological grandfather. I think R1a is fairly well represented in Britain.

Check out the haplogroup maps here, for example: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf .

Thank you all for your replies. Yes, I have seen the Polish DNA Site but it does not have a website that I noticed. Before I expand and invest in a 25+ marker test I would need to know if it would help in any conclusions. I only have 2 exact matches on 12 markers so I don't think it will. The markers themselves will have to lean toward one group or the other. Thanks again.