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R1a Viking or Polish?

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  • R1a Viking or Polish?

    Does anyone know if there are SPECIFIC MARKERS that can distinguish an R1a Haplogroup from Norwegian vs. Polish? We read a lot about R1a that if it's found in England it is Viking but wouldn't this R1a type have exact markers found in Norway? My family is trying to weed through this science to make an educated assumption as to whether we are English or Polish. Could we make some conclusion comparing our R1a markers to that of a Viking Modal Type vs. Polish/Eastern European? The dilemma is that our paternal grandfather is of English descent but we feel that our biological grandfather is Eastern European. We did the dna to find answers but what did it come back as...R1a of course; so we are no closer to an answer than before. (There is NO other male relative to test against to definitively say our grandfather is in fact our BIOLOGICAL grandfather). Another site shows our 12 markers as being the 4th highest ranking haplogroup in Lublin, Poland--it also claims that our markers "are found only in Poland with 1 in Hungary and 1 in Estonia). Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Cox; 18 April 2006, 01:11 PM.

  • #2
    Maybe you will need more than 12 numbers. 12 seems very basic.

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    • #3
      If you upgrade to 25 or 37 markers, you will get a much clearer picture.

      I myself am of Polish descent. At 12 markers, my closest match was someone in Romania (!). At 25 markers, my three closest matches (20/25) in the Ysearch database were all Polish, spread across that country. At 37 markers, my three closest matches (31/37) in that same database were all clustered around the Carpathian mountains in southeastern Poland (although one of the three was actually on the other side of the border, in Ukraine).

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      • #4
        There is a Polish DNA Group
        http://www.ftdna.com/surname_join.as...projecttype=DG

        a Viking project
        http://www.ftdna.com/surname_sum.asp...&projecttype=G

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        • #5
          Originally posted by lgmayka
          If you upgrade to 25 or 37 markers, you will get a much clearer picture.

          I myself am of Polish descent. At 12 markers, my closest match was someone in Romania (!). At 25 markers, my three closest matches (20/25) in the Ysearch database were all Polish, spread across that country. At 37 markers, my three closest matches (31/37) in that same database were all clustered around the Carpathian mountains in southeastern Poland (although one of the three was actually on the other side of the border, in Ukraine).
          lgmayka,

          Have you taken the DNA Tribes test? My relative took it and got quite a few Polish matches. This was a huge surprise. I'm curious to know if people who know they are Polish get the same results or if the test is off.

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          • #6
            Thank you all for your replies. Yes, I have seen the Polish DNA Site but it does not have a website that I noticed. Before I expand and invest in a 25+ marker test I would need to know if it would help in any conclusions. I only have 2 exact matches on 12 markers so I don't think it will. The markers themselves will have to lean toward one group or the other. Thanks again.

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            • #7
              I wish I could remember where I read this, but I remember reading that there were Wends among the various tribes that made up the Anglo-Saxon invaders of Britain beginning in the 5th century. The Wends were a Slavic tribe from the Baltic coast of what is now Poland and northeast Germany.

              Has anyone thought of attributing some of that R1a in Britain to them?

              BTW, your paternal grandfather could very well be your biological grandfather. I think R1a is fairly well represented in Britain.

              Check out the haplogroup maps here, for example: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf .
              Last edited by Stevo; 18 April 2006, 08:51 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by lgmayka
                If you upgrade to 25 or 37 markers, you will get a much clearer picture.

                I myself am of Polish descent. At 12 markers, my closest match was someone in Romania (!). At 25 markers, my three closest matches (20/25) in the Ysearch database were all Polish, spread across that country. At 37 markers, my three closest matches (31/37) in that same database were all clustered around the Carpathian mountains in southeastern Poland (although one of the three was actually on the other side of the border, in Ukraine).
                That's the area my wife's mother is from. She is from Lvov (Lviv) in Ukraine. Her mother was a Kaminsky (Kaminskaya - feminine). My mother-in-law speaks Ukrainian, Polish, Russian, and German (but not much English, unfortunately).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by haplogroupc
                  Have you taken the DNA Tribes test? My relative took it and got quite a few Polish matches. This was a huge surprise. I'm curious to know if people who know they are Polish get the same results or if the test is off.
                  No, I haven't. Looks interesting, though.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stevo
                    I wish I could remember where I read this, but I remember reading that there were Wends among the various tribes that made up the Anglo-Saxon invaders of Britain beginning in the 5th century. The Wends were a Slavic tribe from the Baltic coast of what is now Poland and northeast Germany.
                    The Wends are also known as Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs:

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

                    They speak Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lgmayka
                      The Wends are also known as Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

                      They speak Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian.
                      I didn't know the Sorbs were descendants of the Wends. Interesting.

                      It seems the Sorbs are just a remnant of what was once a pretty widespread and fairly powerful Slavic tribe or group of tribes.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cox
                        Does anyone know if there are SPECIFIC MARKERS that can distinguish an R1a Haplogroup from Norwegian vs. Polish
                        Dave Zincavage developed an Excel spreadsheet defining R1a modals for various populations. Dave has a link to the spreadsheet on the Rootsweb site. On your search engine line type: dave zincavage r1a spreadsheet . Open the page that appears and click on the file with the xls extension.

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                        • #13
                          They could be both, couldn't they?

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                          • #14
                            The original poster apparently has gone. We were unable to convince him that further markers would indeed have answered his question.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by M.O'Connor
                              They could be both, couldn't they?
                              I think they were.

                              The second wife of Viking King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark was Tova or Tovi, the daughter of King Mistivoj of the Wends, who inhabited the Baltic coast of what are now Poland and northeastern Germany. Mistivoj and Harald were military allies, as well as relatives.

                              The Wends were pretty warlike in their own right. They had to be to hold their own on the shores of the Baltic in the Middle Ages. In 983, for example, they sacked and burned the North German city of Hamburg.

                              I read somewhere that Wends were among the conglomeration of tribes corporately known as Anglo-Saxons and took part in the invasion and settlement of Britain following the evacuation of Roman troops from there in A.D. 410.

                              My own belief is that Wends also accompanied the Danish Vikings in their later invasion and settlement of England.

                              No doubt some of the British R1a is Norwegian, especially in the North (Shetlands, Orkneys, Scotland), but I suspect a lot of the Danelaw R1a is Wendish, i.e., Polish.

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