3 Mutations, I really need help

[RLProuse]

Getting others to Test

I have been trying to get others to test. It seems the Prouse family are a suspicious lot and are either not interested or are concerned about their privacy being violated. But I will continue to search!

I have some information I would like to share with you privately at this stage to get your opinion on what I am seeing.

I have located a couple of people whose Y-DNA very closely match mine, but have a different surname. We suspect that there may have been a Prowse/Prouse parent since there is a brick wall and stories that the parents may have died and left the child with others to raise. If it was an illegitimate birth and the child took the name of the people he was living with might account for the name being different.

I have two individuals, one took a Y-37 test and we have a 35/37 match and another who took a Y-67 test and we have a 64/67 match including all of the Nulls.
Their surnames are different, but could they be the distant cousins you mentioned?
I have two or three others that have the same criteria.

If my research holds up I believe I know who the MRCA is. I hope I can locate the Prouse/Prowse who is willing to be tested and link him to the ones i have spoken of.

i appreciate you help and input, Ann!

[Ann Turner]

[QUOTE=RLProuse;432174]
These are my nulls: DYS458, DYS455, DYS454, DYS449, DYS576, DYS570, S31, DYS590, DYS425, DYS450, DYS481, DYS520, DYS568, DYS487
I see you followed through on my suggestion at WikiTree to post a query here. As I responded there, autosomal no-calls are a different matter.

However, I did locate an old map of positions of Y-STRs along the Y chromosome. It doesn't include all the markers you listed, but the ones it covers are all located in the same vicinity.

http://www.cstl.nist.gov/strbase/ystrpos1.htm

Thus this is most likely to be a deletion. It would be interesting if you could track down the most distant Y-line cousin you can find and see if he also has the deletion.

[RLProuse]

My Y-67 DNA Test had 14 Nulls

I understand the frustration of those with multiple Nulls or Deletions! My test came back with 14. I had my two sons tested and their results came back exactly like mine with the same nulls in the same locations. I questioned the results, but the helpdesk were sure of their findings. Since my sons were tested at different times and our results are identical random error doesn't seem likely. It is what it is.
These are my nulls: DYS458, DYS455, DYS454, DYS449, DYS576, DYS570, S31, DYS590, DYS425, DYS450, DYS481, DYS520, DYS568, DYS487

Have any of you taken the time to see what your autosomal raw data can tell you. Yes, it is a huge file, but I believe I have found some interesting things you might want to check out for yourself.

Nulls may not be as rare as you think. In my case I had 14 nulls in my Y67 test results. So..I downloaded my Ancestry Raw Data and using Excel, sorted on one of the last two columns which contain the T, C, G, or A symbols. Be sure to sort A to Z so the zeros or -- appear at the top. If there are any nulls they will show up as zeros in Ancestry results and two hyphens (--) in FF in place of the letters. Be sure to highlight all fields before sorting so all the data remains in context. If you have any questions about sorting or anything else, don't hesitate to email me!

Next, delete all rsults below the zeros or --. We are only interested in the Nulls. The null problem may turn out to be helpful! Be sure to keep a copy of your results with all the raw data. It is all valuable!

I recently made contact with an 11th Cousin twice removed. We exchanged raw data and discovered we had a large number of matching nulls. Our paper trail also proves that we have many common ancestors.

We were surprised to learn that I had 12,193 nulls out of 701,479 and he had 9,119 of 680,545. Another correspondent had 11,720 nulls out of 693,734 alleles tested. These nulls represent about 1% of our tested genes. I took the Y-67 test, the other two individuals Y-37, thus the lower number of nulls & the total tested.

I don't know if there is a Null Project already established, but I am interested in getting one going if there is interest.

Those of us with multiple nulls are frustrated because we only get 12 results and rarely 25, 37 and 67 and 111 are astronomically rare!!! I have found thirteen or fourteen people with multiple nulls ranging from 5 to 14 in the Y37 or Y67 tests. I found 5 more between Y67 and Y100.

I believe that sharing Nulls with others would open a new way of researching and discovering our roots. Since there is no DNA recorded, sharing the raw data will not compromise or privacy.

If you have a working relationship with Excel this project is for you. If you are a novice, we will help you!

I am just beginning my research and would appreciate anyone interested and willing to share only the nulls of your results to contact me.

Up to now nulls have been an artifact of genetics and little understood and a hinderance to our research. I believe they have a roll to play in our quest for ways to learn more about our ancestors and actually help us identify others we might be related.

Goal: Create a database of Null results.

Are you willing to share only your nulls and by working together, see if our problem could actually be beneficial. These files are quite large. Mine was 701,479 rows on the excel spreadsheet.

My email address is [email protected]

[singingfalls]

I don't know if a mutation mechanism has been established for Agent Orange. One way to follow up on your discovery is to recruit some male cousins to take the Y test. If they also have null values, you may have a unique marker for your lineage.

Cool advice. Obvious you have been at this a while.

Hi,
My Dad was exposed to agent orange in Vietnam so im not sure if that has anything to do with it.

I am an agent orange exposed Vietnam war veteran. If the exposure is universal in my dna it is not evident by null markers in my Y-67 test. That said, there is definitely an impact on offspring as evidenced by spina bifida and other defects showing up and recognized as a result of exposure to the pesticide. If anyone chases this aspect down I would be very interested in learning what you find.

[lgmayka]

I've looked through so many dna projects and nobody has that many null values.

My project has a guy with 3 null values in the first 12 markers! (He decided not to upgrade.)

[Ann Turner]

Hi all thank you for your help. I did report it and they told me it was accurate. I kinda feel like they didn't check, It just seems like its a mistake. I've looked through so many dna projects and nobody has that many null values. My dad was dusted on many occasions with agent orange in Vietnam, i very much doubt that it has anything to do with it but it is in the back of my head that maybe there is a connection

I wrote my prior message before I saw your response. With this information in hand, lgmayka's of a "microdeletion" (about 350,000 bases) becomes plausible. Microdeletions (from a few base pairs to several million bases) are rather common in the whole genome, as we are discovering when we see small breaks in Family Finder segments. They sound ominous, but since most DNA is non-coding ("junk" DNA), they seldom have clinical implications.

I don't know if a mutation mechanism has been established for Agent Orange. One way to follow up on your discovery is to recruit some male cousins to take the Y test. If they also have null values, you may have a unique marker for your lineage.

[Ann Turner]

[QUOTE=TurnerAdm;405338]

I support Ann's advice; report it and ask for a review.

Disclaimer: The Turner Adm is NOT Ann Turner. Ann is an expert in the field of genetic genealogy and professional working in the field. She would likely take offense at having what I might write attributed to her. She is not associated with the Turner DNA Project except having a kit in the project she is the contact for.

Ha ha! Can I take credit instead? Actually, I do agree with the advice. It does seem like I'm hearing about more cases with the timing of results coming out of sync.

And the Turner Adm is wonderful -- she helped me break through a brick wall in the Turner line.

[Jim Barrett]

Hi all thank you for your help.

I've looked through so many dna projects and nobody has that many null values.

I'll bet you didn't look at kit 61144 in the Powell project. See https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

He has 4 null values.

I wish FTDNA would mark these with 00 or something else that would be easy to search for. Maybe Darren will send this in as a suggestion.

[dax82]

I reported it

Hi all thank you for your help. I did report it and they told me it was accurate. I kinda feel like they didn't check, It just seems like its a mistake. I've looked through so many dna projects and nobody has that many null values. My dad was dusted on many occasions with agent orange in Vietnam, i very much doubt that it has anything to do with it but it is in the back of my head that maybe there is a connection

[TurnerAdm]

[QUOTE=rt-sails;405289]I support Ann's advice; report it and ask for a review.

Disclaimer: The Turner Adm is NOT Ann Turner. Ann is an expert in the field of genetic genealogy and professional working in the field. She would likely take offense at having what I might write attributed to her. She is not associated with the Turner DNA Project except having a kit in the project she is the contact for.

[dax82]

thanks

Thanks everyone. my first step will be to contact family tree to have them take a second look at my results. Lets hope they're wrong and I can get a full panel of results to look at

[dna]

I support Ann's advice; report it and ask for a review. It's worth being sure. If those three markers really are nulls (deletions) that's rare. In my project, with >600 Y-STR results, we've seen only a few nulls (spread out among the 600 men) and some of those went away after review.

With any null value, the apparent genetic distance is so large that the only ones you can match with FTDNA's algorithm will have nulls on the same markers.

Are you seeing with your project members that the Family Tree DNA Learning Center documentation on How is genetic distance calculated for NULL values? https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...e-null-values/ is incorrect?

How is genetic distance calculated for NULL values?

For Y-Chromosome DNA STR matching, genetic distance is calculated as a single NULL causing event. The NULL value causing event is treated as a single step event with a genetic distance of one. The one exception is for the STR marker DYS439. The difference there between a value of say 12 and a NULL value is calculated as a genetic distance of 12.

W. (Mr.)

[rt-sails]

I suggest you report this and ask for someone to review the results. Of course with the way things are going in the labs, you may be waiting until next year. You will never get matches with those 3 null voids!

I support Ann's advice; report it and ask for a review. It's worth being sure. If those three markers really are nulls (deletions) that's rare. In my project, with >600 Y-STR results, we've seen only a few nulls (spread out among the 600 men) and some of those went away after review.

With any null value, the apparent genetic distance is so large that the only ones you can match with FTDNA's algorithm will have nulls on the same markers.

[TurnerAdm]

Hi,
Im brand new to this. I just received my results back and found that I have 3 mutations. What does that mean? Ive looked at many projects and I dont see anyone with that many. My Dad was exposed to agent orange in Vietnam so im not sure if that has anything to do with it. Any help with understanding this and my results what be greatly appreciated.

This is extremely odd. In all my 600+ members, I have seen fewer than a dozen and probably more nearly half a dozen null voids and never have I seen two in a single test.

This looks to me like a lab reporting problem and your results were pushed as completed and shouldn't have been. To have 3 null voids in one panel (markers 13-25) sends up a red flag.

I suggest you report this and ask for someone to review the results. Of course with the way things are going in the labs, you may be waiting until next year. You will never get matches with those 3 null voids!

Good luck!

[lgmayka]

Im in haplogroup rm-269 and have no matches beyond 12 markers.

Your three null values are all in the same region:
DYS458 - 7867839 to 7867961
DYS454 - 8224083 to 8224282
DYS449 - 8217908 to 8218262

So it appears that at some point in your patrilineage, a small segment of the Y chromosome was deleted. This is not all that uncommon--almost the entire haplogroup N has such a deletion.

However, these three null values will prevent you from matching anyone according to FTDNA's automatic algorithm. To find matches, you would have to use Ysearch instead, where a zero means simply that the marker should be ignored for matching purposes.