Matches and genetic distance

[LeoLoS]

Hello Victor,

No, I am not at all sure, it was actually you who suggested that I probably am E3b1 and maybe I'd better then try upgrading to 25 or 37 markers. To do so I think the number of persons in the database should be a lot greater, the chance to find some "closer relative" would then also be greater. As the situation now is, with a genetic distance of 6 to 17 with people sharing my surname, I think the chance to find a close relative is very small. FamilyTreeDNA says that "The range of generations for the common ancestor extends to 76.9 generations, or almost 2000 years for those cases where there is not a surname in common."

On the other I read from this forum that people which had 10/12 match got a 35/37 match by upgrading their markers, which means they are closer than a 12/12 match. This should then indicate that all my 12/12 and 11/12 and 10/12 matches could be possible relatives. The numbers of generations could be cut down from 29-72 to 7-14 at 95% probability. Does this happen often, or is it more rare? I thought the 12 markers test was showing "older" markers than the extended 25 or 37 markers test, the other markers being "newer" ones developed after the 12 markers. Obviously it isn't like this.

But actually I am more interested to know how my ancestors ended up in Spain and then Mexico from the Near East, and which migration routes they took. Then of course some "generalizations" like being Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jew or Moor would be of help, although it is not clearly written in my dna. So maybe the deep subclade test then would suit me better. Noticed that recently there was a discussion of this topic in the thread "Deep subclades -Who cares". Your arguments were that the test reduces the search in geographical location of your origin.

Unfortunately you get only one line from your paternal side researched and one from your maternal line, the others stay silent. But two lines are of course better than nothing. Would be interested into research the line of my mother's father's mother's parents. But no relatives are known so it can't be done. Saw in DNA forum that there are some genetic tests that resarch the dna matrerial from the other lines except direct paternal and maternal lines, that means the x chromosome. Anyone who knows how such a test works, what does it research, as the x-chromosome should be a blend of fragments from our ancestors' x-chromosmes? Is this an area that might develop in the future? Will FamilyTreeDna come up with similar or other tests later?

Also, according to FamilyDnaTree:s information on Understanding matches, all lines can be traced down to one Adam (and one Eva I suppose). This is a bit hard for the mind to grasp, from whom did he get his Y-dna, and with whom did his children "marry". Where there other individuals around, whose genes were not carried down to nowadays people? How should you interpret this?

I remember a math task from school,
10 generations ago (about 10*25 = 250 years ago) the amount of your ancestors were 2^10 = 1 024
20 generations ago (about 20*25 = 500 years ago) the amount of your ancestors were 2^20 = 1 048 576
...
80 generations ago (about 80*25 = 2000 years ago) the amount of your ancestors were 2^80 = 1.2E24 (1 200 000 000 000 000 000 000 000)
and so on. So much people there aren't even today and certainly not 2000 years ago when my MRCA should have lived.

The population should usually decrease the further back we go in time. The above model probably works well within some generations, giving birth to separate lines, but at some point the lines are not more different, they mix into each other, that means they are related and you get duplicated lines. So how many real ancestors did I have 2000 years ago, when you remove the duplicate lines? Those ancestors of course are ancestors to a lot of other people, not only to me. A tricky question, maybe some genetic good at math or statistics and probability could count some average figures for that. Anyhow, very probably dna material of my MCRA could be found from other lines that goes down to me, but it would be fragmented into the x chromosome.

Researching my grandmothers' genealogy that has been well recorded the last 200-300 years, show me lines which have split and then rejoined after three or even two generations, and I also find intermarriages of cousins from both paternal and maternal sides, obviously this happened earlier in smaller societies with a steady population, which is not migrating.

Well, a lot of questions again,

Regards

[LeoLoS]

Hello Jim,

Sorry Jim for putting your email adress in my reply. Anyhow you asked me if the areas written in your projects match with mine. After the names of the projects your email adress appears. The areas didn't match but the email adress did, therefore I mentioned it.

Yes I heard of the spanish inquisiton and I read Ivanhoe as a kid. I get some Ashkenazies in my REO, but not terribly much and none is a 12/12 match. Any Sephards I don't see there, but I guess the Ashkenazies has to do with Dr. Hammer's database. As I said earlier I find three 12/12 matches originating from Italy, which surprised me. This might indicate that my ancestors could be Romans? Also the site http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../haplo_e3b.htm suggests that the combination of my markers (haplotype 11) should probably be of roman origin, could also be of sephardic origin but this is not sure. My knowledge of my paternal line only goes to my grandfather, but I know they come from Spain, but not after the inquisition, much later, maybe 150 years ago. Also I have been told my grandfather should be of basque origin, but I am not sure, as basques aren't generally E3b. Maybe his mother was of basque origin. Roman, Basque, Sephardic or some else origin, it doesn't matter whatever it is.

Saw by the way from the link http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm that E3b - M78 is not considered as genuine sephardic haplotype: The higher frequency of E-M78 among Sephardic groups may be the result of pronounced genetic drift, or more likely, gene flow from North African and Spanish populations. The likelihood of European and North African gene flow is further supported by the fact that another sub-clade, E-M81, occurs only among Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). It is also found in very high percentages among North Africans. Its frequency among the Sephardim at 5% is comparable to that seen in Spanish populations, again suggesting possible gene flow from Spanish and Berber populations into Sephardic groups.

How many E3b:s are there anyhow in the world today? And how many were they during the great Neolithic migration out of the Middle East? Would be nice to know how sucessful they have been in reproducing themselves after that.

Regards

[Jim Denning]

Hello Jim,

Sorry Jim for putting your email adress in my reply. Anyhow you asked me if the areas written in your projects match with mine. After the names of the projects your email adress appears. The areas didn't match but the email adress did, therefore I mentioned it.

Yes I heard of the spanish inquisiton and I read Ivanhoe as a kid. I get some Ashkenazies in my REO, but not terribly much and none is a 12/12 match. Any Sephards I don't see there, but I guess the Ashkenazies has to do with Dr. Hammer's database. As I said earlier I find three 12/12 matches originating from Italy, which surprised me. This might indicate that my ancestors could be Romans? Also the site http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../haplo_e3b.htm suggests that the combination of my markers (haplotype 11) should probably be of roman origin, could also be of sephardic origin but this is not sure. My knowledge of my paternal line only goes to my grandfather, but I know they come from Spain, but not after the inquisition, much later, maybe 150 years ago. Also I have been told my grandfather should be of basque origin, but I am not sure, as basques aren't generally E3b. Maybe his mother was of basque origin. Roman, Basque, Sephardic or some else origin, it doesn't matter whatever it is.

Saw by the way from the link http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm that E3b - M78 is not considered as genuine sephardic haplotype: The higher frequency of E-M78 among Sephardic groups may be the result of pronounced genetic drift, or more likely, gene flow from North African and Spanish populations. The likelihood of European and North African gene flow is further supported by the fact that another sub-clade, E-M81, occurs only among Sephardim (Semino et al. 2004). It is also found in very high percentages among North Africans. Its frequency among the Sephardim at 5% is comparable to that seen in Spanish populations, again suggesting possible gene flow from Spanish and Berber populations into Sephardic groups.

How many E3b:s are there anyhow in the world today? And how many were they during the great Neolithic migration out of the Middle East? Would be nice to know how sucessful they have been in reproducing themselves after that.

Regards

e3b is a jewish dna as is j and others no one group is all one haplogroup!!!!

numbers of testees will make this clearer i can not wait for 9,000,000 as bennet cant i bet. the more i think of victors chart the more i like it as a tool to see where we e3bs are

you might not be m78 but the berber group is it 164 i forget the number. anyways we are on the beginning of a search and it is gonna be fun

[Victor]

Hello Victor,

No, I am not at all sure, it was actually you who suggested that I probably am E3b1 and maybe I'd better then try upgrading to 25 or 37 markers. To do so I think the number of persons in the database should be a lot greater, the chance to find some "closer relative" would then also be greater. As the situation now is, with a genetic distance of 6 to 17 with people sharing my surname, I think the chance to find a close relative is very small. FamilyTreeDNA says that "The range of generations for the common ancestor extends to 76.9 generations, or almost 2000 years for those cases where there is not a surname in common."

On the other I read from this forum that people which had 10/12 match got a 35/37 match by upgrading their markers, which means they are closer than a 12/12 match. This should then indicate that all my 12/12 and 11/12 and 10/12 matches could be possible relatives. The numbers of generations could be cut down from 29-72 to 7-14 at 95% probability. Does this happen often, or is it more rare? I thought the 12 markers test was showing "older" markers than the extended 25 or 37 markers test, the other markers being "newer" ones developed after the 12 markers. Obviously it isn't like this.

But actually I am more interested to know how my ancestors ended up in Spain and then Mexico from the Near East, and which migration routes they took. Then of course some "generalizations" like being Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jew or Moor would be of help, although it is not clearly written in my dna. So maybe the deep subclade test then would suit me better. Noticed that recently there was a discussion of this topic in the thread "Deep subclades -Who cares". Your arguments were that the test reduces the search in geographical location of your origin.

Leo, you do have a lot of questions this time but you're not alone. With every new thing we learn more questions are born in our minds. I still think the odds are your subclade will be M78, but if you're following the charts we've been making for the past few months you'll notice that sometimes M78s and M123s look very similar from their haplotype patterns alone.

You have to set up some priorities about what is more important for you to know: learning about the possible prehistoric origin of your ancestors or finding out about the more recent genetic affinities you may have with other Y-DNA testees. If you chose the first then you need to go for the deep clade test; if the latter then you need to put aside some dough for an upgrade to 25 or 37 STRs. If I recall correctly, from what you have written before you seemed to be more inclined for the second option. Now you say that you're also interested in the possible migration routes of your ancestors from the Middle East, through Europe and then to the New World. I understand exactly because I feel the same way, but unfortunately there are no definitive or absolute answers to our questions, only approximations to reality or plausible explanations. Either way, the key in all of this is Patience, with capital "P". As Jim says, the more people get tested around the world we could start seeing some shapes emerge in this immense genetic puzzle.

Unfortunately you get only one line from your paternal side researched and one from your maternal line, the others stay silent. But two lines are of course better than nothing. Would be interested into research the line of my mother's father's mother's parents. But no relatives are known so it can't be done. Saw in DNA forum that there are some genetic tests that resarch the dna matrerial from the other lines except direct paternal and maternal lines, that means the x chromosome. Anyone who knows how such a test works, what does it research, as the x-chromosome should be a blend of fragments from our ancestors' x-chromosmes? Is this an area that might develop in the future? Will FamilyTreeDna come up with similar or other tests later?

The tests you refer to are known as autosomal tests, because they test autosomal DNA, of which the chromosome X is part of. I haven't heard that FTDNA has any plans to market such a test. In fact they discontinued the one they offered before because their accuracy level left much to be desired. However, the technology is evolving and eventually the usefulness of the autosomal tests will prove to be more satisfactory. You can google-up the words DNAPrint, DNA Tribes and Ethnoancestry to learn more about such tests.

Also, according to FamilyDnaTree:s information on Understanding matches, all lines can be traced down to one Adam (and one Eva I suppose). This is a bit hard for the mind to grasp, from whom did he get his Y-dna, and with whom did his children "marry". Where there other individuals around, whose genes were not carried down to nowadays people? How should you interpret this?

I remember a math task from school,
10 generations ago (about 10*25 = 250 years ago) the amount of your ancestors were 2^10 = 1 024
20 generations ago (about 20*25 = 500 years ago) the amount of your ancestors were 2^20 = 1 048 576
...
80 generations ago (about 80*25 = 2000 years ago) the amount of your ancestors were 2^80 = 1.2E24 (1 200 000 000 000 000 000 000 000)
and so on. So much people there aren't even today and certainly not 2000 years ago when my MRCA should have lived.

The population should usually decrease the further back we go in time. The above model probably works well within some generations, giving birth to separate lines, but at some point the lines are not more different, they mix into each other, that means they are related and you get duplicated lines. So how many real ancestors did I have 2000 years ago, when you remove the duplicate lines? Those ancestors of course are ancestors to a lot of other people, not only to me. A tricky question, maybe some genetic good at math or statistics and probability could count some average figures for that. Anyhow, very probably dna material of my MCRA could be found from other lines that goes down to me, but it would be fragmented into the x chromosome.

Researching my grandmothers' genealogy that has been well recorded the last 200-300 years, show me lines which have split and then rejoined after three or even two generations, and I also find intermarriages of cousins from both paternal and maternal sides, obviously this happened earlier in smaller societies with a steady population, which is not migrating.

Well, a lot of questions again,

Regards

You're right. It is hard for the mind to grasp as it is hard to explain. In essence we're dealing here with the concept of coalescence. As we go back in time generation after generation all world lineages tend to fuse, combine or melt into a single ancestral lineage. Most of the genetic molecules in our living genes have remained unchanged throughout the millenia, and we share that genetic material with every other human being, no matter what their race or nationality is. It is the small, rare and unique mutations or polymorphisms that have accumulated throughout the ages as humans have evolved and populated every last corner of the world, that now help geneticists distinguish one branch from another in the big human phylogenetic tree.

I'm convinced of one thing: our understanding is rapidly expanding but there will always remain unknowns. We have to be able to discern between the hard facts of science and the deductions of scientists. Even our collective powers of reason cannot begin to fathom the absolute truth.

[LeoLoS]

A new test with alltogether 59 markers appeared yesterday. 25 markers' test is gone, I already was about to order it. Ordered the deep subclade test instead, as I wait for more information on the other test. How many markers is it possible to find? Will there in some year be a 99 markers' test? Is it really neccessary with that much markers? Are the DYS# numbers some sort of chronological order, like DYS#19 being the youngest marker and DYS#641 being the oldest one, or what do these numbers reveal?

[Victor]

I suggest you visit the link below. You'll find a lot of info. on STRs and many links to related sites.

http://www.cstl.nist.gov/biotech/strbase/index.htm

[LeoLoS]

At first the 25 markers test seemed to have been gone, especcially fom the main page pricing, but from your memberpage you can order an upgrade fom 12 to 25 markers for $49, nice price.

Can you also upgrade from 25 to 37 markers, although I can't see it from my own FTDNA page, probably because it only shows the tests I can order with my nowadays 12 markers. Anyone with 25 markers who sees this possibility?
Thanks!

[Victor]

I have the following options :

YRefine 25to37 for $49 and
YRefine 25to59 for $148

[LeoLoS]

Not more than two projects?

I am already a member of E3b project, which I suppose is a geographical project. I understood you can join one geographical and one surname project. Am not so interesting in joining a surname project as at the moment there is none of my surname who is E3b. But recently there have come more geographical projects like Iberian DNA Project and Spain / España that could be of interest to me, among the Mexico - Dna project that has already been there a longer time. Can I now join only one more of the above mentioned projects?

On my FTDNA page it says following:

Group Join

You can join a Surname Project that researches individuals that have the same surname or a variant. Joining a Surname Project could be very helpful to verify relationships with individuals that share a similar surname.

We have identified one or more Surname Projects for your family name. Click on the project name to see its description. if there is more than one project listed, click on any of them, and then go to your browser's "back" button to check another project description. You will be able to join only two Projects.

I get alltogether 11 projects that claim they have my surname listed, that means 9 projects except the project with my surname and E3b project. These 9 projects are anyhow more geographically oriented and not Surname projects as said above.

Also Iberian DNA Project and Spain / España project don't have members with my surname, but in the beginning of their page they both have a lot of surnames listed, including mine, that anyhow aren't members of their project. A bit confusing.

[anka]

I should think that your E3b project counts as a lineage project, which allows you to join the geographical Iberian project too.

[LeoLoS]

I should think that your E3b project counts as a lineage project, which allows you to join the geographical Iberian project too.

I only find one lineage project from Family Tree DNA Projects and it is Belgium Walloon mtDNA Lineage project. Is lineage BTW connected with mtDNA?

E3b is not at all found from the Family Tree DNA Projects. Anyone who knows to which projectgroup E3b belongs? Thanks.

[anka]

You're right. FTDNA has no link to the E3b project, neither on the project page nor in the personal pages section. I don't think the project's administrator knows about this problem. You find the project website at:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/freemanDNAProject/

You can join the project via the website, I suppose. And maybe you should notify the administrator about the missing link, so he can contact FTDNA and ask them to fix it.

[LeoLoS]

You're right. FTDNA has no link to the E3b project, neither on the project page nor in the personal pages section.

Well, in my personal pages section I have a link to E3b and E3*, but this probably because my predicted haplogroup is E3b. I suppose it is similar with other haplogroups too, as they aren't either found from the project page.

So I suppose you can then belong to three project groups; your surname project, your haplogroup project and a geographical project. (I mainly think of Y-DNA projects, I don't know mtDNA projects)

On the project page FTDNA says:
You can order a test and join a project according to the following categories:

Males can join:
A Surname Project that research individuals that have the same surname or a variant. Joining a Surname Project could be very helpful to verify relationships with individuals that share a similar surname.
One Y-DNA Geographical Project to verify a possible point of origin for the paternal line.

Females and Males can join:
One mtDNA Lineage Project that research individuals that have or suspect having the same maternal line.
One mtDNA Geographical Project to verify a possible point of origin for the maternal line.

[LeoLoS]

One step mutation matches lost from personal page

My personal page dispalys one day both exact matches and one step mutation matches, the other day only exact matches. That has gone on since last Thursday already. Anyone else having the same problems?

[Victor]

My personal page dispalys one day both exact matches and one step mutation matches, the other day only exact matches. That has gone on since last Thursday already. Anyone else having the same problems?

Leo,

When you belong to more than one project, if you switch from one project to another in the combo-box selector you can get a different number of matches. Test it out yourself.

Victor