Matches and genetic distance

[LeoLoS]

Am relatively new to FTDNA. I tested originally for Genographic Project and then transferred my results to FamilyTreeDNA.

I wonder why I get 7 exact matches (12/12) shown by Y-DNA matches, 5 exact matches shown by Recent Ethnic Origins and only 2 exact matches shown by Haplogroup (E3b). Shouldn't all exact matches be of same Haplogroup (E3b)? In ySearch I also find same 7 exact matches (12/12) , 2 of unknown origin and 3 are of Haplogroup E3b.

When I look at Genetic distance - 1, I find 9 matches by Y-DNA, 78 matches by Recent Ethnic Origins and 23 of Haplogroup E3b.
The 9 matches by Y-DNA are also found in ySearch (39 matches alltogether reported with a Genetic Distance of 1), but when I look closer at them,
they all seem to have a genetic distance of 2 to my markers although they are reported to be a Genetic Distance of 1. I include an example below, first line is mine.

13 24 13 10 16 18 11 12 12 14 11 31
13 24 13 10 16 18 11 12 12 13 11 30
13 24 13 10 15 18 11 12 12 14 11 31

According to my understanding all three lines have a genetic distance of 2 to each other. Have I misunderstood something?

[Lost-Sheep]

All of your 12/12 matches probably are E3b, but only three of them paid for the additional SNP test which confirmed their haplogroup. Thanks to those three who paid for the $65.00 SNP test, you get the free bonus of finding out your haplotype!

[Victor]

Am relatively new to FTDNA. I tested originally for Genographic Project and then transferred my results to FamilyTreeDNA.

I wonder why I get 7 exact matches (12/12) shown by Y-DNA matches, 5 exact matches shown by Recent Ethnic Origins and only 2 exact matches shown by Haplogroup (E3b). Shouldn't all exact matches be of same Haplogroup (E3b)? In ySearch I also find same 7 exact matches (12/12) , 2 of unknown origin and 3 are of Haplogroup E3b.

When I look at Genetic distance - 1, I find 9 matches by Y-DNA, 78 matches by Recent Ethnic Origins and 23 of Haplogroup E3b.
The 9 matches by Y-DNA are also found in ySearch (39 matches alltogether reported with a Genetic Distance of 1), but when I look closer at them,
they all seem to have a genetic distance of 2 to my markers although they are reported to be a Genetic Distance of 1. I include an example below, first line is mine.

13 24 13 10 16 18 11 12 12 14 11 31
13 24 13 10 16 18 11 12 12 13 11 30
13 24 13 10 15 18 11 12 12 14 11 31

According to my understanding all three lines have a genetic distance of 2 to each other. Have I misunderstood something?

Hello,

As you can read in the description on each tab in your personal FTDNA page, there are three separate databases where your matches are searched for. The Y-DNA Matches database is made up of Family Tree customers only who have signed their release form; The REO database includes haplotypes from other sources as well; and the Haplogroup database includes SNP tested haplotypes only, both from FTDNA customers as well as from Dr. Hammer population studies.

As to your other question, in your example above the mismatch happens at DYS389-1 and DYS389-2, which are in fact considered as a single allele, that's why it is only considered as a genetic distance of -1.

p.s. If you're E3b then you should also check the following links:

http://www.familytreedna.com/(jzxqsw555zchlj4552bk0a45)/public/freemanDNAProject/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/hg/YCC_E3b.html

http://haplogen.orgfree.com/page12.html

Welcome.

[LeoLoS]

Thanks for your replies.

From Genographic Project I got to know my 12 markers and that I am E3b (M35), so I already knew my haplogroup before joining FamilyTreeDNA. Surprisingly that you have to take an extra test to know your haplogroup. I only paid $100 for the test of Genographic Project (+ $26,5 for shipping) as FamilyTreeDNA takes $159 for the 12 markers test and $65 for Snp test. Is there any difference between the tests, Genographic Project's tests are anyhow made by FamilyTreeDNA?

Thanks for the links, am already a member of E3b project.

[Jim Denning]

Thanks for your replies.

From Genographic Project I got to know my 12 markers and that I am E3b (M35), so I already knew my haplogroup before joining FamilyTreeDNA. Surprisingly that you have to take an extra test to know your haplogroup. I only paid $100 for the test of Genographic Project (+ $26,5 for shipping) as FamilyTreeDNA takes $159 for the 12 markers test and $65 for Snp test. Is there any difference between the tests, Genographic Project's tests are anyhow made by FamilyTreeDNA?

Thanks for the links, am already a member of E3b project.

national geographic negotiated their deal and got that included wih the promise of 100,000 tests. but some normal things arent included . also some people notice a difference in the way the numbers look that's also because of the deal. these new subclade tests are newer then the deal so wether you get this i dont know. but 3 months ago he test want that deep and new discoverys werent looked at. so yeah they is a dif.

you also can belong to a surname group and a geographical group maybe you match the areas i have below.

[Victor]

Thanks for your replies.

From Genographic Project I got to know my 12 markers and that I am E3b (M35), so I already knew my haplogroup before joining FamilyTreeDNA. Surprisingly that you have to take an extra test to know your haplogroup. I only paid $100 for the test of Genographic Project (+ $26,5 for shipping) as FamilyTreeDNA takes $159 for the 12 markers test and $65 for Snp test. Is there any difference between the tests, Genographic Project's tests are anyhow made by FamilyTreeDNA?

Thanks for the links, am already a member of E3b project.

Most participants in the Genographic Project and in FTDNA's surname projects only get a prediction of their haplogroup. It is in those cases where the statiscal analysis doesn't reach an acceptable degree of certainty that the SNP test is actually performed to determine the haplogroup.

With the new deep-clade tests we can go one step further and determine additional mutations beyond M35, which defines E3b, and find out which branch or subclade your haplogroup belongs to, like E3b1, E3b2 or E3b3.

Take a look at the diagram in the link below that corresponds to E3b and see how the haplogroup subdivides into several branches. http://www.familytreedna.com/deepclade.html#deepE
This deep-clade test is not the same as the previous $65 SNP test.

Each one of those branches is more or less correlated to a geographical distribution which could reflect possible migration routes of our distant ancestors.

[LeoLoS]

Does the deepclade test also provide you with information of the geographical distribution and the migration routes of your distant ancestors, or does it only tell you whether you are E3b1, E3b2 or E3b3 etc?

For instance from National Geographic I got following information:

M35 first appeared in the Middle East some 20,000 years ago among the M96 bearing peoples who had left Africa 30,000 to 40,000 years ago.Members of haplogroup E3b bear witness to the great Neolithic migrations out of the Middle East. M35 peoples were among the first farmers. They enjoyed an era of settled agricultural prosperity that led to substantial population growth and subsequent migrations which dispersed their successful lifestyle and lineage. The marker is common in southern Italy, southeast Europe and northern Africa among the descendants of ancient farmers who carried their agricultural lifestyle out of its Middle Eastern birthplace.

I suppose I should get some more specific information with the new deepclade test?

Surprisingly I have 3 exact matches that originated from Italy, but none from Mexico or Spain. As my father is mexican I of course expected more from these countries. Recent Ethnic Origins tells me figures like Spain (678), Mexico (307) and Italy (628), so the chance for spanish originated people should be even greater than for italian originated people. Also I gain no genetic matches searching from ySearch by my surname, genetic distance is at least 6 to 17 and none is E3b. Not much to search for.

[email protected] matches me with a genetic distance of 1, the numerous projects written before the actual email adress are not equal to the ones that FamilyTreeDNA suggest I could join. They are among others:

Project Members Description
Cuba 36 This area project is for for people..
E3b 91 This is a group for men whose Y Chr..
Galicia Spain DNA 25 This project is open to those who's..
Guanches-Canary Isle 31 This project is open to those who's..
Mexico - Dna 228 The Genealogy of Mexico DNA Surname..
Sephardim-New Mexico 124 Juan De Onate led the first Hispani..
U5 41 If your mtDNA test results show hap


I notice that Mexico - Dna project has following information on haplogroups of Spain:

The DNA of our origins point to a rich history we were not aware of. Most of our ancient YDNA (R1b) can found in the Basque of Northern Spain and Southern France. This makes sense as the Ancestors of the Basque were a Non-Indo European speaking people that were the first settlers of
Europe. Therefore they would have left the most descendants in Europe. They were the first Iberians. Spain was a refuge in europe after the last glacial maximum 18,000 years ago.
People from northern europe migrated and eventually mixed with Iberians already there. Next the Phoenicians (semitic ancestors of modern day Lebanese), Greeks and Carthaginians (K2,J,J2,E3b) invaded and settled Spain along with a later migration from the Jews (J,J2 and E3b). Followed by the Romans (E3b,J,J2 and R1b) and Visigoths (I1c and I1b2). The Moorish (E3b2) invasion followed although DNA studies suggest little impact on our YDNA as yet (about 3% of Spain's Ydna).

Could this be the reason to that I get some matches from Italy, but none from Spain or Mexico? My deep ancestors might have came through Italy to Spain?

In the Sephardim-New Mexico project I notice that the members have been categorized like following groups:

Arabic & Moors
Ashkenazie Jews
European R1B1
II Diaspora Cohen
Native Americans
Phoenician Lebanon
Sephardic Cohanim
Sephardic Non-Cohen
Vikings in Spain
Unassigned Members

How is this possible, would of course be interested to now into which group I would belong. Is the categorization possible by just looking on the markers or how has it been done? Suppose I have to ask the group administrator about that.

[Victor]

At this moment I'm still waiting to get my results for the subclade test and I suppose it is only that, without any additional phylo-geographical info.

I simpathize with your situation. Knowing that one's haplogroup originated near the Middle East and that it spread thousands of years ago around the Mediterranean sea is too unspecific to satisfy our curiosity and need to know.

Genetic results are actually just a piece of the big puzzle and do not provide the final answer that we're looking for or that we'd like to hear. We still have to do a lot of detective work to trace back our family's genealogy and our people's history.

What this genetic knowledge does is narrow down the geographical regions where there is higher probability of finding near matches. In your case, with only 12 markers tested, I'm not sure if ordering a subclade test would be better than upgrading your haplotype to 25 or 37 markers.

From your 12-marker values it is already apparent that your haplogroup could be E3b1. If you upgrade to 25 or 37 your near-matches list will surely be cut down in size considerably, and then any near matches left in your list will definitely be more significant in terms of genetic affinity and distance.

One thing is for sure: considering their means for travel in their times, our ancestors did move around quite a lot. Didn't they?

[derinos]

derinos

One thing is for sure: considering their means for travel in their times, our ancestors did move around quite a lot. Didn't they?

That observation is food for much thought. They were of course very few. (The whole Africa contingent was estimated as 25,000 people.)

But in the last, say 10,000 years, they had plenty of time to move. It only takes one strong young couple, on a ship or in a trading caravan, to displace an identifying subclade many hundreds of miles, if they are fruitful enough in their new home.

[LeoLoS]

Hello again,

Our ancestors did indeed move around a lot and not only together in there own haplogroups, that's why we probably got such a mess to make up their migration routes laterwards. There is of course a lot information in this DNA forum, everything I don't have time to look through, so my questions might also have been answered before.

By the way, according to the early migration routes shown by the National Geographic you get the impression that most haplogroups developed separately from other haplogrups and chose different migration routes. Is this so, or did for instance the "great Neolithic migration out of the Middle East" also consist of other haplogrups than E3b? I mean, today an ethnic group anyhow consists of different haplogroups, but how was it 8000-10 000 years ago? Were people migrating just belonging to one haplogroup, or did they already then belong to several haplogroups?

If I understood right, haplogroups were born due to mutations from an originally small group of 25 000 people. But nowadays we are some thousands of millions of people. So the possibilities for different mutations should be a lot more. So how will it be in future, lets say after some thousands years (in case mankind still is alive), will the process continue and give birth to a lot of new haplogroups? A bit theorethical question I suppose.

And a more practical question. If I happened to be E3b1 by the subclade test, would I also get information to which cluster (alfa,beta,gamma or delta) I belong?

On http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../haplo_e3b.htm ( this is part of the Border_Reivers Project ) I noticed that the nine markers 19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b have been researched for different values, alltogether 18 combinations. Each combination has a table with some percentages and a short conclusion. Has anyone of you E3b experts seen these results before, can you possibly tell me from which research they come?

Thanks!

[Victor]

Hello again,

<<<>>>

By the way, according to the early migration routes shown by the National Geographic you get the impression that most haplogroups developed separately from other haplogrups and chose different migration routes. Is this so, or did for instance the "great Neolithic migration out of the Middle East" also consist of other haplogrups than E3b? I mean, today an ethnic group anyhow consists of different haplogroups, but how was it 8000-10 000 years ago? Were people migrating just belonging to one haplogroup, or did they already then belong to several haplogroups?

IMO, by the time of the Neolithic expansion it is possible that several haplogroups were simultaneaously on the move. However, in the oldest migrations out of Africa it is most likely that the small groups of migrants belonged to the same haplogroup.

If I understood right, haplogroups were born due to mutations from an originally small group of 25 000 people. But nowadays we are some thousands of millions of people. So the possibilities for different mutations should be a lot more. So how will it be in future, lets say after some thousands years (in case mankind still is alive), will the process continue and give birth to a lot of new haplogroups? A bit theorethical question I suppose.

Not new haplogroups, Leo. Think of the tree analogy with a big trunk, several big branches extending from the trunk, more limbs extending from the big branches, and then many twigs extending from the limbs, and so on and on. Those new mini twigs at the farthest extreme will still carry the same mutations as you and I plus the newer ones.

And a more practical question. If I happened to be E3b1 by the subclade test, would I also get information to which cluster (alfa,beta,gamma or delta) I belong?

Not with the current test. But are you 100% sure that your haplotype is E3b1? There have been some surprising results...

On http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../haplo_e3b.htm ( this is part of the Border_Reivers Project ) I noticed that the nine markers 19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b have been researched for different values, alltogether 18 combinations. Each combination has a table with some percentages and a short conclusion. Has anyone of you E3b experts seen these results before, can you possibly tell me from which research they come?

Thanks!

Don't consider myself an expert but I've seen the results you refer to. I think the haplotypes at the Border Reivers project come from many places and have been collected over time by the people heading that project.

Victor.

[YCCHgI]

I'd be a bit wary of those generalizations from that Mexico - DNA project that you posted. I am I1b2, and I have never heard it called "Visigothic." Intriguing, but since it seems to be a Castilian and Sardinian centered haplogroup, I'd say no...

[LeoLoS]

I'd be a bit wary of those generalizations from that Mexico - DNA project that you posted. I am I1b2, and I have never heard it called "Visigothic." Intriguing, but since it seems to be a Castilian and Sardinian centered haplogroup, I'd say no...

I think Mexico DNA project just suggested that the Visigoths had the haplogroups I1c and I1b2, just like Greeks, Romans, Jews and the Moors had haplogroup E3b (among others). But true, you find a lot of generalizations and confusing infomation, on some sites E3b is considered as Mediterranean or Mediterranean/Semitic or even Semitic.

[Victor]

I think Mexico DNA project just suggested that the Visigoths had the haplogroups I1c and I1b2, just like Greeks, Romans, Jews and the Moors had haplogroup E3b (among others). But true, you find a lot of generalizations and confusing infomation, on some sites E3b is considered as Mediterranean or Mediterranean/Semitic or even Semitic.

I agree, Leo. Generalizations can and often do lead to the wrong conclusions, particularly when they reinforce a personal and cherised opinion about ourselves. But unless we are population geneticists by training and are currrently involved in desiging and carrying out the actual population studies in search of answers, all we have to go by are the published reports of those who are.

It is my impression that many people, probably the majority of those who log in to forums like this one, are looking for the quick and easy answers. And as you can imagine, the only quick and easy answers are, you guessed it, "generalizations".

If you want to get very specific and into the details of the science behind genetics, first we have to get a solid grip on the basics and the scientific background of many disciplines. By the time you do that don't be surprised that what was considered accurate information now will be replaced by new and totally different information that will probably require you to repeat the cycle above.

One thing is certain: absolute answers only exist in one's mind.

Regards,

Victor

[Jim Denning]

Does the deepclade test also provide you with information of the geographical distribution and the migration routes of your distant ancestors, or does it only tell you whether you are E3b1, E3b2 or E3b3 etc?



[email protected] matches me with a genetic distance of 1, the numerous projects written before the actual email adress are not equal to the ones that FamilyTreeDNA suggest I could join. They are among others:

Project Members Description
Cuba 36 This area project is for for people..
E3b 91 This is a group for men whose Y Chr..
Galicia Spain DNA 25 This project is open to those who's..
Guanches-Canary Isle 31 This project is open to those who's..
Mexico - Dna 228 The Genealogy of Mexico DNA Surname..
Sephardim-New Mexico 124 Juan De Onate led the first Hispani..
U5 41 If your mtDNA test results show hap


I notice that Mexico - Dna project has following information on haplogroups of Spain:

The DNA of our origins point to a rich history we were not aware of. Most of our ancient YDNA (R1b) can found in the Basque of Northern Spain and Southern France. This makes sense as the Ancestors of the Basque were a Non-Indo European speaking people that were the first settlers of
Europe. Therefore they would have left the most descendants in Europe. They were the first Iberians. Spain was a refuge in europe after the last glacial maximum 18,000 years ago.
People from northern europe migrated and eventually mixed with Iberians already there. Next the Phoenicians (semitic ancestors of modern day Lebanese), Greeks and Carthaginians (K2,J,J2,E3b) invaded and settled Spain along with a later migration from the Jews (J,J2 and E3b). Followed by the Romans (E3b,J,J2 and R1b) and Visigoths (I1c and I1b2). The Moorish (E3b2) invasion followed although DNA studies suggest little impact on our YDNA as yet (about 3% of Spain's Ydna).

Could this be the reason to that I get some matches from Italy, but none from Spain or Mexico? My deep ancestors might have came through Italy to Spain?

In the Sephardim-New Mexico project I notice that the members have been categorized like following groups:

Arabic & Moors
Ashkenazie Jews
European R1B1
II Diaspora Cohen
Native Americans
Phoenician Lebanon
Sephardic Cohanim
Sephardic Non-Cohen
Vikings in Spain
Unassigned Members

How is this possible, would of course be interested to now into which group I would belong. Is the categorization possible by just looking on the markers or how has it been done? Suppose I have to ask the group administrator about that.

1ST BIG TIME YOU SHOULDNT POST A MATCHES EMAIL ADDRESS

I am CARADOC28 i dont mind but other might not appreachiate it
i assume my dennings come from a jewish [shephardic] line probably introduced by the normans post 1066 hastings much like the story ivanhoe.
the middle 13 24 13 10 16 18 11 12 12 13 11 30 matches me i am Eb31 m78.


ever hear of the inquesition in spain it was a real sport being moor basque jewish and others. many jews were forced to convert. i seem to match them
an my 12 are heavily askenazi. when they converted some jews went on with their lives other to this day hide jewish stuff until they are alone. with good cause.
imagine a dannanberg was my shephardic bookkeeper in britian. and he conveted in 1300 britian do you think he keeps the berg.i dont. in the dannan board in roootsweb they debate wether its jewish of christian. i think both which is what i probably am. and since you noticed it lol maybe you are too.

do your testing i did 37 i would love to match you and see where we go
you can contact me here i am like a bad penny i am always here ;lol.
you can also email me.
the other e3b denning is my son and i am 11/12 to a dunning. he is from the english scotish line me i come from the midst of ireland ardagh longford
picture above lol
looks like fred flintstone neolithic farmer lol