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  • YDNA 12 marker test

    I am confused about the result matches we got from the 12 marker test. The test predicted R-M269 haplo group R1B12a but the exact matches all seem to be to the M-222 group. There were no exact matches to our surname which is Lynn, but there were 6 matches to Flinn/Flynn. When I compared the results to some of the projects I found several that matched Lynns but none of these were listed in the matches FTDNA notified us of. I'm still fairly new to this and wonder what it is I'm missing. I know that the test only indicates a common ancestor so we upgraded to the autosomal test. Can anyone recommend the next step. The goal is to get past our brick wall which is William Linn, circa 1766-1815. It appears he just dropped off the face of the earth.

  • #2
    Originally posted by JlMedley View Post
    I am confused about the result matches we got from the 12 marker test. The test predicted R-M269 haplo group R1B12a but the exact matches all seem to be to the M-222 group. There were no exact matches to our surname which is Lynn, but there were 6 matches to Flinn/Flynn. When I compared the results to some of the projects I found several that matched Lynns but none of these were listed in the matches FTDNA notified us of. I'm still fairly new to this and wonder what it is I'm missing. I know that the test only indicates a common ancestor so we upgraded to the autosomal test. Can anyone recommend the next step. The goal is to get past our brick wall which is William Linn, circa 1766-1815. It appears he just dropped off the face of the earth.
    Welcome to the club ! Remember how long it took you to master your driving skills... But everyone learns

    Please take a look at http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html. You will see there, that R-M222 (R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1) is one of the branches of R-M269 (R1b1a2). You would need to purchase an SNP test, to learn whether you are R-M222 or not. There will be specialized panels of tests available in the very near future, so wait for them. Unless you really need to know now (which I doubt, since that is not really genealogically relevant).

    Your first take away could be that while R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a (one of the possible branches of R-M222 = R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1) might be a very nice way of showing someones placement in the tree, it is not necessarily the most convenient one

    Y-DNA12 test gives you only the first approximation of the tasks ahead. If any of your 12 marker matches look promising and tested Y-DNA67 or Y-DNA111, go for either of these two tests (at such a moment people often base their decision on their budget). What is a promising one? Not an adoptee. One with some contact information or at least some meaningful tree.

    Prepare yourself for testing of other members of your family, as you want to cast your net wide. For example, it could be that you and your brother/cousin/2nd cousin etc. have different Y-DNA..., but the same Y-DNA ancestor.

    Most importantly start reading, at least tidbits from the Family Tree DNA Learning Center and pick something from http://isogg.org/. Maybe DNA-Newbies or ISOGG Wiki or something from their http://isogg.org/resources.htm...

    Enjoy! This is a very entertaining hobby

    P.S. Some people are reporting that not all notifications are reaching them, so it could be that you were impacted too. Additionally, please do not disable notifications! As it is also removing your ability to see the results of others and have your results to be seen by the others.
    Last edited by dna; 3 November 2014, 06:37 PM.

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    • #3
      The 12 marker test causes so much confusion that it shouldn't even be offered anymore.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by JlMedley View Post
        There were no exact matches to our surname which is Lynn, but there were 6 matches to Flinn/Flynn. When I compared the results to some of the projects I found several that matched Lynns but none of these were listed in the matches FTDNA notified us of.
        The Flinn/Flynn matches seem very promising.

        At the 12-marker level, you'll see exact 12/12 matches on your Matches page. You'll also see some 11/12 matches -- but only when you and the other person are in the same project.

        So, if the Lynn matches that you found in other projects are 11/12 matches, then you won't see them as matches unless you also join the projects that they are in. And if any are only 10/12 matches (or less), you won't see those on your Matches page at all.

        Originally posted by JlMedley View Post
        I know that the test only indicates a common ancestor so we upgraded to the autosomal test. Can anyone recommend the next step.
        Well...

        The autosomal test isn't going to directly help with your Y-DNA matches, unfortunately. Autosomal DNA is completely different, and you'll only get matches with other people who have also taken the autosomal DNA test. So if your Flynn/Flinn Y-DNA matches haven't also taken the autosomal test, then you won't see them as autosomal matches.

        However, hopefully you'll find the autosomal results to be useful for other areas of your genealogy research. Autosomal matches may be related on any line of your ancestry, from either your mom's or dad's side of the family, so there's a lot of other potential here.

        Originally posted by dna View Post
        Y-DNA12 test gives you only the first approximation of the tasks ahead. If any of your 12 marker matches look promising and tested Y-DNA67 or Y-DNA111, go for either of these two tests (at such a moment people often base their decision on their budget). What is a promising one? Not an adoptee. One with some contact information or at least some meaningful tree.
        The suggestion to upgrade to more markers is definitely the best advice.

        The 12-marker Y-DNA test is a very basic entry-level test, and can only estimate relatedness in a very broad timeframe. In 95% of the cases, the common ancestor between you and an exact 12-marker match may be found anywhere between 1 to 28 generations ago.

        To narrow the timeframe and see which matches are closest to you, you'll need to upgrade to a higher-level Y-DNA test -- 37 markers or more. At the 37-marker level, exact matches are related within 1 to 7 generations in 95% of the cases.

        Elise
        Last edited by efgen; 4 November 2014, 01:10 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by efgen View Post
          The Flinn/Flynn matches seem very promising.

          At the 12-marker level, you'll see exact 12/12 matches on your Matches page. You'll also see some 11/12 matches -- but only when you and the other person are in the same project.

          So, if the Lynn matches that you found in other projects are 11/12 matches, then you won't see them as matches unless you also join the projects that they are in. And if any are only 10/12 matches (or less), you won't see those on your Matches page at all.



          Well...

          The autosomal test isn't going to directly help with your Y-DNA matches, unfortunately. Autosomal DNA is completely different, and you'll only get matches with other people who have also taken the autosomal DNA test. So if your Flynn/Flinn Y-DNA matches haven't also taken the autosomal test, then you won't see them as autosomal matches.

          However, hopefully you'll find the autosomal results to be useful for other areas of your genealogy research. Autosomal matches may be related on any line of your ancestry, from either your mom's or dad's side of the family, so there's a lot of other potential here.



          The suggestion to upgrade to more markers is definitely the best advice.

          The 12-marker Y-DNA test is a very basic entry-level test, and can only estimate relatedness in a very broad timeframe. In 95% of the cases, the common ancestor between you and an exact 12-marker match may be found anywhere between 1 to 28 generations ago.

          To narrow the timeframe and see which matches are closest to you, you'll need to upgrade to a higher-level Y-DNA test -- 37 markers or more. At the 37-marker level, exact matches are related within 1 to 7 generations in 95% of the cases.

          Elise
          The 12 marker matches that I have who are P312 means that the common ancestor for them and me was at least 6000 ybp or 200 generations.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by efgen View Post
            The Flinn/Flynn matches seem very promising.

            At the 12-marker level, you'll see exact 12/12 matches on your Matches page. You'll also see some 11/12 matches -- but only when you and the other person are in the same project.

            So, if the Lynn matches that you found in other projects are 11/12 matches, then you won't see them as matches unless you also join the projects that they are in. And if any are only 10/12 matches (or less), you won't see those on your Matches page at all.

            The suggestion to upgrade to more markers is definitely the best advice.

            The 12-marker Y-DNA test is a very basic entry-level test, and can only estimate relatedness in a very broad timeframe. In 95% of the cases, the common ancestor between you and an exact 12-marker match may be found anywhere between 1 to 28 generations ago.

            To narrow the timeframe and see which matches are closest to you, you'll need to upgrade to a higher-level Y-DNA test -- 37 markers or more. At the 37-marker level, exact matches are related within 1 to 7 generations in 95% of the cases.Elise
            If FTDNA is going to continue to offer the 12 marker test then the description should be changed and have a warning that the match could go back as far as 200 generations and can include people from subclades that go back more than 2,000 years and that they will probably end up having to get a 37 marker test to narrow down matches to a recent common ancstor. Currently it has this very misleading description -

            12-marker matches are highly likely to be related within the past 29 generations.
            Provides genealogically relevant matches and recent ancestral origins.
            Recommended for confirming a genealogical relationship with another male.
            Provides your Haplogroup: deep ancestral origin of the paternal line.
            We store your DNA for free so that you can upgrade the tests in the future
            NO subscription fees



            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            The 12 marker matches that I have who are P312 means that the common ancestor for them and me was at least 6000 ybp or 200 generations.
            Just so JlMedley knows that other people agree with your comment. 12 marker matches for R1b only provide confidence in the major haplogroup. For many people most of the 12 marker matches aren't from the past several thousand years and therefore the matches can be meaningless.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Armando View Post
              The 12 marker test causes so much confusion that it shouldn't even be offered anymore.
              These tests can still serve some purpose.
              For example if 2 people with a known common ancestor about 12 generations back each take a test, one at 111 markers and one at 12 markers, then a match will pretty sure indicate that the paper trail is correct.

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              • #8
                One circumstance in which a 12 marker test can be useful is if there is an unusual value for one of the first 12 markers that indicates a family or regional cluster. We recently had such a result for a new project member, which put him immediately into a family group and enabled us to find his ancestor's birthplace.

                It can also be used as a point of entry for surname projects. I offer free 12 marker tests to men with particular lines of descent to encourage them to join our project. Depending on the results, I can then suggest (or sometimes purchase) and upgrade for them.

                Jim

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
                  One circumstance in which a 12 marker test can be useful is if there is an unusual value for one of the first 12 markers that indicates a family or regional cluster. We recently had such a result for a new project member, which put him immediately into a family group and enabled us to find his ancestor's birthplace.

                  It can also be used as a point of entry for surname projects. I offer free 12 marker tests to men with particular lines of descent to encourage them to join our project. Depending on the results, I can then suggest (or sometimes purchase) and upgrade for them.

                  Jim
                  Jim,
                  There are a small number of testers where 12 markers can point them in the right direction but for the majority of R1b they are hopeless. I honestly think that even 67 marker tests are not enough. There are testers at 67 who have different SNPs from their Big-Y results. I believe that SNP tests are more reliable for family history.I have a GD of 39 at 111 from another member of S5520 so how far out are we? I am waiting for the new SNP tests from FTDNA, but they will only show that I have or don't have all the SNPs in the S5520 group from the Big-Y.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    Jim,
                    There are a small number of testers where 12 markers can point them in the right direction but for the majority of R1b they are hopeless. I honestly think that even 67 marker tests are not enough. There are testers at 67 who have different SNPs from their Big-Y results. I believe that SNP tests are more reliable for family history.I have a GD of 39 at 111 from another member of S5520 so how far out are we? I am waiting for the new SNP tests from FTDNA, but they will only show that I have or don't have all the SNPs in the S5520 group from the Big-Y.
                    Yes, it all depends. In our surname project we are fortunate to have a cluster of men who are Z49+ and who also have a very rare value of DYS388=11. When I see a 12 marker test with that value I can pretty quickly assign the man to that cluster and then develop a testing and research strategy.

                    Your mileage may vary.

                    Jim

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Armando View Post
                      The 12 marker test causes so much confusion that it shouldn't even be offered anymore.
                      I think the 12 marker test is a great tool for those of us who just want an inexpensive way to get samples into the system for basic haplogroup prediction and subsequent SNP testing.

                      That said, I agree that their sales pitch for that particular test is rather misleading and should probably be revised.
                      Last edited by Sarmat; 4 November 2014, 09:55 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hneel View Post
                        These tests can still serve some purpose.
                        For example if 2 people with a known common ancestor about 12 generations back each take a test, one at 111 markers and one at 12 markers, then a match will pretty sure indicate that the paper trail is correct.
                        Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
                        One circumstance in which a 12 marker test can be useful is if there is an unusual value for one of the first 12 markers that indicates a family or regional cluster. We recently had such a result for a new project member, which put him immediately into a family group and enabled us to find his ancestor's birthplace.

                        It can also be used as a point of entry for surname projects. I offer free 12 marker tests to men with particular lines of descent to encourage them to join our project. Depending on the results, I can then suggest (or sometimes purchase) and upgrade for them.

                        Jim
                        I'll admit that my initial statement was a bit hyperbolic but it was due to the large number of people, including the OP, that don't understand the severe limitations of the Y-DNA12 test. Something does need to be done so they really understand what they are getting into before they even purchase the test.

                        I will repeat that the Y-DNA12 test description has information that can be misleading. Matches between P312 and U106 people at 12 markers shows that it shouldn't be recommended for confirming a genealogical relationship with another male. Two people with the same surname can be positive for two completely different SNPs and they can still match at 12 markers.

                        Just so the current Y-DNA12 description, that I posted earlier, can be seen in the same post here it is again -

                        12-marker matches are highly likely to be related within the past 29 generations.
                        Provides genealogically relevant matches and recent ancestral origins.
                        Recommended for confirming a genealogical relationship with another male.
                        Provides your Haplogroup: deep ancestral origin of the paternal line.
                        We store your DNA for free so that you can upgrade the tests in the future
                        NO subscription fees
                        Last edited by Armando; 4 November 2014, 10:14 AM.

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