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  • #31
    AngloNorman I1b2 in Ireland...

    Ok, this thread is fascinating to me because I have been trying to understand how why my Iberian/Sardinian group ended up in Ireland, where there are others with non-Irish surnames who seem to be part of it, too.

    On paper, I "know" why -- I have a very unusual "old french" surname, that is actually a Norman nickname, and even match a guy from Ireland with a variant spelling of it -- my ancestor showed up in Ireland as a Norman knight and I have his biographical details from various records.

    I have found a pretty close match in Normandy, but I wasn't aware that I1b2's really have any kind of presence in Northern France? Also, all of my other close matches are in the UK and Ireland, not Sardinia or Iberia. The people who are close matches mostly have "English" names. So perhaps different waves -- aboriginal Britons and later Continental imports? All very confusing.

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    • #32
      Mr.Galway,

      Hopefully this post will get rid of some of the confusion.

      You hit the nail on the head when you split the groups up. I believe most researchers believe the I1b2 in Ireland got there in deep prehistoric times.

      As I posted previously, the I1b2 clade (group, or sublineage) seems to be linked with plain old R1b (which 80+ of Ireland, France and Spain belong to), in that the two groups appeared to have waited out the Ice Age together in what is now Spain. (Incidentally, which group was ruler and ruled is anybody's guess, fun to speculate).

      At any rate, the I1b2 in the Isles is thought to have come there a long, long time ago.

      It also got to Normandy a long, long time ago. Normandy has a high percentage of I1b2, approaching 10% (which is high for the clade!) What is interesting is that Sweden is 1% I1b2, so this would indicate that the Normans of France allowed some "native" (i.e. Romano-Celtic) men into their ranks before they invaded England.

      At any rate, so, the English I1b2 could have ALSO gotten there in the Norman invasians.

      One of those two mechanisms is most likely. (There are others - there always is - it just takes one ancestor - but the probability you happen to be the descendant of a Sardinian sailor who got marooned in England is, well, slim).

      At any rate, you are on the right track to apply history to forge a multidisciplinary approach. If your town has a history of Normans in it, there's a good chance your I1b2 came from Normandy.

      Comment


      • #33
        thanks for that reply!

        Clears up a lot for me. I was not aware that I1b2 had a (relatively) strong normandy presence.

        I have some interesting anecdotal evidence to back up this bizarre outcrop of (possibly) Norman I1b2's in the UK:

        *the only person I "match" in the entire FTDNA database is someone named de___, ie a likely French/possibly Norman origin surname. (protected because he's not publicly listed).
        * I closely match someone in Ireland with my French surname. However, our genetic distance indicates our MCRA is centuries apart, which fits with my family history.
        * There were a group of Anglo-Norman familes that controlled the city of Galway with Soprano-like vigor, disparagingly called the "tribes" of Galway by Cromwell. (My family was one of them). Interestingly, some of my closest matches are from these same Galway-origin Tribes-descendents... but what makes it VERY confusing to me is that some of them -- from a different family -- are a different group (G2), despite showing up as distant matches. I suppose the Normans were the original Motley Crue.

        In any case, what frustrates me about all this -- at least to some degree -- is where is the ancestral "home?" Centuries spent here, England, Ireland, Normandy... Sweden? Spain? Possibly all of the above? I consider myself American through and through but it'd be nice if i could pick a lane in the Old World.

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        • #34
          Derinos

          Originally posted by YCCHgI
          Mr.Galway,



          It also got to Normandy a long, long time ago. Normandy has a high percentage of I1b2, approaching 10% (which is high for the clade!) What is interesting is that Sweden is 1% I1b2, so this would indicate that the Normans of France allowed some "native" (i.e. Romano-Celtic) men into their ranks before they invaded England.

          At any rate, so, the English I1b2 could have ALSO gotten there in the Norman invasians.

          .
          The Norse who established the enclave in France, called after their origin "Normandy" about 900 AD, readily allied with the neighboring Bretons, who were not true "natives" of France, but Southern Romano-Britons. These had been displaced to the European mainland by the Kentish Saxon mercenaries' mutiny of about 400 AD, and still spoke "British Latin" or proto-Welsh; (the Breton language is even today partially understood by Welsh speakers.)
          This alliance was favored, in that Duke William's mother was the daughter of a Breton tanner, according to tradition.
          The Bretons were eager to join the Normans in what was to them a reconquest of their original Celtic holdings, now renamed "England". So they just put a "de" in front of their Celtic names and took over again after Hastings!

          Comment


          • #35
            Thanks for the info Derinos, I did not know that.

            Mr. Galway, here are my two cents on the "homeland" conundrum. Since people tend to think of homelands in the ethnic sense (America aside, of course), I would consider your true homeland the place where your ancestors stayed recently, and of course, mixed with the natives. Because of course, if you go far back enough, we all had ancestors in Africa, so this really focuses that for genealogical purposes, it is really recent ancestry that we seek (plus an understanding perhaps of migrations and history). Just my 2 cents.

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            • #36
              Also, the high presence of G2 makes me rethink the Sardinian connection. There is a lot of I1b2 and G2 in Sardinia. Could just be a coincidence though...

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              • #37
                thanks for the great info, Derinos & YCCHG1...

                I looked at the distribution of I1b2, and I'm wondering if my ancestor was not from Gascony instead of Normandy... this is the area near the Pyrenees where I1b2 is in greatest concentration (besides Sardinia!), and part of Edward I's holdings 200 years after the Conquest. He was part of Edward I's household, but served in Ireland.

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                • #38
                  I received my results today, and was Ia1 as predicted. The results were following:

                  M161- M21- M223- M227- M26- M72- P37.2- M170+ M253+ M258+ M307+ P19+ P30+ P38+

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I1a or I1a1

                    Eki

                    Is FTDNA going to test for P40?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by genny
                      Eki

                      Is FTDNA going to test for P40?
                      If they are, they haven't told me.

                      I know that M170+ and M258+ mean that I'm of Hg 1 and M253+ and M307+ mean I'm I1a, but can somebody tell me what P19+, P30+ and P38+ mean?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Eki
                        I know that M170+ and M258+ mean that I'm of Hg 1 and M253+ and M307+ mean I'm I1a, but can somebody tell me what P19+, P30+ and P38+ mean?
                        Never mind, I found the answer at http://www.le.ac.uk/genetics/maj4/Jo...NRG.Review.pdf

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Deep Haplogroup Test for I

                          Hello Phil,

                          Received results of New DeepSNP Test on 6 Mar. 06 as follows: Group: I1c, M170+ M223+ M258+ P19+ P38+ M161- M21- M227- M253- M26- M307- M72- P30- P37.2-

                          YCA IIa = 19; YCA IIb = 21. A this point I am very confused about what these results mean, and if I should have requested to have different SNP's tested? Have read that I1c label may be changing to I1b2 based on new evidence for structure of Phylogentic tree? If this is true why did FTDNA list me as I1c?

                          I1c article at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....i1c_part_1.htm shows I1c Haplotype #1 thru #10

                          I don't match any of the ten, but closest match is #2 with a variation of one number. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I suggest you look at the 2006 ISOGG Y-SNP Tree at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html. This tree includes all SNPs that have been made public in scholarly articles or by commercial testing companies.

                            Three of your results, M170+ M258+ P19+, are redundant, as far as is known and define haplogroup I. At the next level, P38+ defines the I1 subclade. Finally, M223+ defines what is presently known as I1b2a. I used the word "presently" as new SNP discoveries keep changing the names. Haplogroup I seems to be lagging behind other haplogroups, such as R1b, in the discovery of defining SNPs.

                            The SNPs are very good for tracing migration patterns. As new SNPs are discovered, they move closer in time to where STR markers pick up. Thanks,

                            Phil

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Here's my results:

                              M170+ M253+ M258+ M307+ P19+ P30+ P38+
                              M161- M21- M223- M227- M26- M72- P37.2-

                              Paul

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Wil
                                Hello Phil Goff, Krimna and YCCHGI,

                                I am confirmed I1b by FTDNA and most likely am at least I1b2 (old style) since I have the YCAIIa,b 11-21 values. I am awaiting results of the DeepSNP-I test from Batch 132. The first test failed and FTDNA is running it again. Wouldn't ya know!

                                My first identified ancestor is Robert Huestis born in Dorset, England about 1595. He emigrated to America in 1635.

                                My surname is Danish and Danes have been in England at least since late 700s A.D. However, Iberian tin traders visited the Cornwall tin mines before the Roman era. However, I don't think they are in my ancestral line. My take is that they either got to England following the LGM or much later as Danish Vikings. They may have inhabited the Danelaw or Wessex or went over to England with the Normans. The Husted name 1881 occured in southern England and the northeast English coast. I'm just hoping that this DNA stuff will provide some answers, if possible, before this old geezer moves on.

                                My results are at Ysearch MZS8F.

                                Wil Husted
                                Wil, I have been confirmed as I1b2a.

                                My ancestors have been traced to the East Anglia district of England since 1310. I also suspect a Danish progenitor. The Treaty of Chippenham ceded East Anglia and part of Mercia to Guthrum, King of Denmark, in 876 (I think that is right). Guthrum encouraged Danes to colonize that area and shared out much of the available land to Danes.

                                This all makes me question the accepted assumption about the origin of the Gates surname as being derived from the Old English word "gatu" which meant a pass through mountains, or a low area between two hills. There are no hills in East Anglia, so why would they select a geographical characteristic that doesn't exist in the area? It seems more likely that Gates derived from a Danish word which might have an entirely diferent meaning.

                                The FTDNA East Anglia Project has a lot of links on the history of the area.

                                Jim Gates

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