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Y-DNA Hg G, Sarmato-Alans, Chivalry, King Arthur, the Holy Grail, Catharism

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  • Y-DNA Hg G, Sarmato-Alans, Chivalry, King Arthur, the Holy Grail, Catharism

    According to the Border Reiver's site and Hg G expert Ray Banks, G could be evidence of possible Sarmatian-Alanic lineage.

    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....il/haplo_g.htm

    http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/G2Ideas

    http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/MoreG2

    I have looked more into this absolutely captivating topic of the resettled Sarmatians and Alans. Historians and scholars think these Irano-Aryans seemingly brought heavy cavalry, the chivalric-knightly ethos, the King Arthur-Holy Grail mythos, and Iranian dualism in the form of the Cathar heresy into the West. I am totally intrigued by any indirect relationship to these world-historical people. Curiously enough, I have been since childhood irresistably drawn to the Holy Grail mythos and the Western dualistic religion tradition of Iranian-Aryan origins in the West (Marcion, the Paulicians, the Bogomils and Cathars, etc.). In my family's case there are also obscure connexions to the lesser European aristocracy.

    http://www.hungarianquarterly.com/no144/p113.html

    "Under the Emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180) the Roman Army campaigned for eight years in Pannonia Barbarica (i.e., in the central and northern parts of the Carpathian Basin, north and east of the Roman limes along the Danube) against the Quadi, a German tribe, and Sarmatians and Alans, Iranian speaking barbarians who came from east of the Carpathians, from the south Russian steppe and from the Lower Danube Plains near the Black Sea. After hard but victorious battles, 5,500 Sarmatian/Alanian heavy cavalry (called cataphractarii, i.e. clothed fully in scale armour) consisting of prisoners taken in war were posted to Britain in 175. Marcus Aurelius sent these warriors to Britannia not only to keep them out of trouble in Pannonia Barbarica but also to deploy them beyond Hadrian's Wall.2 These Sarmatians are known to have been stationed in permanent camps outside the Roman forts at Ribchester in Lancashire, Chester, and elsewhere. The Sarmatian enclaves - especially the one at Ribchester, a Lancashire site known in ancient times as Bremetennacum veteranorum - survived until the end of the Roman era in the late 4th century A.D.

    The tombstone fragments of a Sarmatian/Alanian standard bearer were found at Chester (Deva) in 1890. This is unique evidence of the presence of heavily armoured Sarmatian cavalry from the earliest third century A.D. The two fragments of the tombstone (now in the Grosvenor Museum in Chester) show a horseman wearing a cloak and turning to the right. He holds aloft, with both hands, a dragon standard of the Sarmatian/Alanian type, and his conical helmet, with a vertical metal frame, is of the same pattern. A sword hangs at his right. Both man and horse are shown clad in tightly fitting scale armour. This attire for man and mount was characteristic of Sarmatian/Alanian heavy cavalry.
    ...

    The closed society of Sarmatian cataphractarii in Britain was able to maintain its ethnic features during the Late Roman period and afterwards. One reason is that their troops, called cuneus Sarmatorum, equitum Sarmatorum Bremetennacensium Gordianorum were not part of any military organization in active service. Consequently, after the withdrawal of the Roman army, they continued to live on their accustomed sites (Chester, Ribchester, etc.). They were still called Sarmatians after 250 years. A semihistoric Arthur lived about A.D. 500. He was very probably a descendant of those Alan horsemen, a battle leader of the Romanized Celts and Britons against the Anglo-Saxons, who invaded Britain after the Roman army had withdrawn. Arthur and his military leaders could therefore manage to train the natives as armoured horseman after Iranian patterns against the attacks of Angles and Saxons fighting on feet until their victory at Badon Hill."......

    http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/GRAIL.htm

    "In our 1966 Journals of Hungarian Studies we studied the Sarmatian presence in England and their influence upon the arts, fashion, mythology of the Islands along with the establishment of horse breeding and cavalry. ...

    In the January and February 1997 edition of the Archeological Journal Scott C. Littleton who is professor of anthropology at Occidental College in Los Angeles has written an article entitled Were Sarmatians the source of Arthurian legend? He also makes mention that in 175 AD Marcus Aurelius dispatched 5,500 Iazygs from the Danube region. There is also evidence of Sarmatians in the region. In Professor Littleton’s opinion it is from their culture that the Arthur legend originated along with the legend of the Holy Grail.

    The writer of the article mentions that the first commander of the Sarmatians was Lucius Artorius Castus. According to the inscription on a stelae he led his troops to Gaul in 184 to quench a rebellion. Like the legendary King Arthur, he too led a cavalry into the European arena. “The first Sarmatian leader of the Ribchester contingent probably took on the title artorius, borrowing his commander’s name. A subsequent leader may have been King Arthur, the “Artorius, dux bellorum (war leader)...” writes professor Littleton. King Arthur saved Britain by defeating the Saxons at Badon hill in 510 AD. We did discuss the further implications of this title in our previous Journal. We also discussed the Sarmatian Yazyg affiliations at the same time.

    Professor Littleton discusses a relationship between the Sarmatians, Scythians and the Alans. The entire legend of King Arthur and his court, the Round Table, the Holy Grail may all have had Sarmatian origins. He identifies Sir Lancelot with a leading personality of the Alans. The legends of the Holy Grail later became embellished with Christian myths that never really found favor in the eyes of the Church. The first written document of the Round Table came from the works of Wace of Jersey entitled Roman de Brut, dated 1155 AD (3, Vol.10:208)."....

    http://www.smu.edu/arthuriana/teachi...ia_malcor.html

    "Evidence suggests that the tales of Arthur, Lancelot and other Knights were brought into Europe by various groups of invading Sarmatians and Alans. People sensed that the stories somehow belonged together, so they combined them. Variations reflect each invading group's history and traditions. ...

    The Lancelot and Grail material seem to be derived from the same source as the sagas of the Narts, and the agent of transmission was most likely the Alans of Gaul."

    http://groups.msn.com/AncientWisdomN...holygrail.msnw

    Wolfram claimed in his 'Parzival' (ca. 1200-1210;16.827.1-2) that Chretien de Troyes had failed to present the 'true' story of the Holy Grail. While Wolfram's narrative differs in many details from Chretiens, the differences between these and other continental Grail narratives can be accounted for through the effect of historical events upon a single tradition that was shared by the Alans. Wolfram drew heavily on sources from southern Gaul for his Grail material. In addition to place descriptions and personal names, it is quite likely that he took his patterns for his story from the south as well. In 'Parzival' the Grail is described as a rock on which the names of the guardians, who are called "Templars", appear. The Knights Templar, who supplied the name for these guardians, are the traditional heirs of the treasure of the Temple of Solomon following the demise of the Cathar heresy. Some of the Templars were associated with the Alan families of southern Gaul, just as the Cathars were. It is likely that Wolfram's source was a variant of an Alanic story preserved by these descendants of southern Gaul.

    Markale sees strong parallels between Wolfram's 'Parzival' and the Iranian "Conte de la Perle", which is Manichaean in character. He believes that this similarity is lacking in other Grail legends, and he proposes that Wolfram made a conscious substitution of the stone for the vessel with blood or for Chretiens "deep dish". Wolfram's Grail has been repeatedly described as "Germano-Iranian", and attempts to explain this connection have ranged from influence through the Cathars in the south of France to oriental tales brought back to Europe by Crusaders. Friedrich von Suhtschek "maintained the Arthurian cycle to be of Iranian origin and Wolfram's 'Parzival' and Gawain romance a free translation from the Persian", and Closs argued that instead of a direct translation, the story of the Grail had been supplied by "a long forgotten source" of Persian origin. Closs also maintained that the Grail had its origin on the "borders of Persia and Afganistan", citing in partial support the connection between Wolfram and Manichaean beliefs. Closs credited Arabs and Crusaders with the transmission of the legends, with the Albigensians providing fertile ground for such legends to take root. Markale felt the Wolfram's 'Parzival', which claims the mysterious Kyot as its source, is the only Grail romance that exhibits Cathar-like thought. Waite went farther with this notion, claiming that this reference to Kyot is the only literary remnant of the Grail tradition of southern France. Wolfram does not use the prologue, which links 'Parzival's family to the Orient on the father's side, but he does link the line of Gahmuret, which is from the East, to the House of Anjou.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hrodberht
    I have looked more into this absolutely captivating topic of the resettled Sarmatians and Alans. Historians and scholars think these Irano-Aryans seemingly brought heavy cavalry, the chivalric-knightly ethos, the King Arthur-Holy Grail mythos, and Iranian dualism in the form of the Cathar heresy into the West. I am totally intrigued by any indirect relationship to these world-historical people.
    The dualism in Christianity seems to derive from the Aryan (Iranian) influences present throughout Anatolia, Palestine and Mesopotamia for hundreds if not thousands of years. The Alani influence said to have contributed to the Aturnian legends is probably distinct from that which may have contributed to the Cathars. Bear in mind that the Allani were among the refugees who crossed the Rhein in 406 CE along with the Quadi and Marcomani Suebi, Hasding and Siling Vandals, .Allimanni, and perhaps the Burgundians. Mix in some Visigoths and Ostargoths, and you have influences from the entire Pontic coast as well as what is now Romania, Hungary, Selisia, Czechia, Slovakia, etc.

    It is typically assumed that Christianity came to the Goths via captives taken during the invasion of Asia Minor. It is also possible that the influence came from their neighbors to the east, the Alani (Roxalani). I'm inclined to believe they were Christian when they invaded Anatolia.

    But the Armenian and Aryan connections seem to go back much further.

    Originally posted by Hrodberht
    A semihistoric Arthur lived about A.D. 500. He was very probably a descendant of those Alan horsemen, a battle leader of the Romanized Celts and Britons against the Anglo-Saxons, who invaded Britain after the Roman army had withdrawn.
    See Wolfram's The Roman Empire and its Germanic Peoples, Chapter Eleven Britain Too Was Not Conquered for a different view on this matter.

    Originally posted by Hrodberht
    Markale sees strong parallels between Wolfram's 'Parzival' and the Iranian "Conte de la Perle", which is Manichaean in character. He believes that this similarity is lacking in other Grail legends, and he proposes that Wolfram made a conscious substitution of the stone for the vessel with blood or for Chretiens "deep dish". Wolfram's Grail has been repeatedly described as "Germano-Iranian",
    If we accept the prevailing view that the Scythians were Iranian, and that the Saka and Scythians were basically the same people (in so much as such a vast categorization is applicable), in view of the linguistic and genetic evidence we might well conclude that the Saxons are the sons of Sakas. I'm not sure what the argument is for ascribing Sarmation ethnicity to the Allani. They are often held to have been Aryan, that is "Iranian".

    Comment


    • #3
      Right on target about the Irano-Aryan influence in Christianity. The notable German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer argued for rigorously separating the superimposed Judaic elements from the Indo-Aryan core of Christianity.

      Your speculation about the introduction of Christianity to the Goths by the Alans is interesting. Would you have any more information?

      I agree about Catharism, various traditions flowed into Catharism, but the clear presence of the Sarmato-Alans of the Pyrenees constitute an undeniable influence.

      The King Arthur-Chivalry-Holy Grail-Cathar complex is an indissociable complex of late-Iranic mythology and ideology. In Titurel Wolfram von Eschenbach explicitly identifies the Grail Castle as being found in the Alanic Pyrenees. Montsegur, the last defense of the Cathars, is famously located in the Pyrenees. Morever, Eschenbach names the lord of the Grail Castle "Perilla", an unmistable allusion to the lord of Montsegur, Raymond Pereille. Pereille signed his name in Latin as Perilla.

      The Sarmatian-Alanic basis of King Arthur seems well-established to me. I'll delve into this later.

      And yes, indeed, the Sakas, the Scythians, the Sarmatians, and the original Saxons are all interrelated folks.

      Half-relatedly, do we have any proper interpreters of allelic values here? As I am not yet knowledgeable in this area, I would be grateful if anyone could point out any population genetics and ethnical implications of my Y-DNA Haplogroup G STR markers:

      DYS393: 13 DYS439: 12 DYS388: 12 DYS385a: 14
      DYS19: 15 DYS389-1: 12 DYS390: 22 DYS385b: 14
      DYS391: 10 DYS389-2: 17 DYS426: 11 DYS392: 11

      Perhaps I have a Hg G variant that is common in the gnostic Syrian sect of the Druzes instead of the Alano-Ossetes, who knows?

      Comment


      • #4
        Here Schopenhauer argues for the Indo-Irano/Aryan essence of Christianity.

        "In truth it is not Judaism with its panta khala lian, but Brahmanism and Buddhism that in spirit and ethical tendency are akin to Christianity. The spirit and ethical tendency, however, are the essentials of a religion, not the myths in which it clothes them. Therefore I do not abandon the belief that the teachings of Christianity are to be derived in some way from those first and original religions. ... This faith stands in contrast to the false, shallow, and pernicious optimism that manifests itself in Greek paganism, Judaism, and Islam. To a certain extent the Zend religion holds the mean, since it opposes to Ormuzd a pessimistic counterpoise in Ahriman. The Jewish religion resulted from this Zend religion, as J. G. Rhode has thoroughly demonstrated in his book Die heilige Sage des Zendvolks; Jehovah came from Ormuzd, and Satan from Ahriman. The latter, however, plays only a very subordinate role in Judaism, in fact almost entirely disappears. In this way optimism gains the upper hand, and there is left only the myth of the Fall as a pessimistic element, which (as the fable of Meshian and Meshiane) is also taken from the Zend-Avesta, but nevertheless falls into oblivion until it, as well as Satan, is again taken up by Christianity."

        Arthur Schopenhauer, The World As Will and Representation, Volume II, Dover Publications.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hrodberht
          Right on target about the Irano-Aryan influence in Christianity. The notable German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer argued for rigorously separating the superimposed Judaic elements from the Indo-Aryan core of Christianity.
          If I'm not mistaken, there is some good evidence for Aryan (Parthian and Persian and perhaps Mitanni) influences in Judaism. There are almost certainly Egyptian, Babylonian, Canaanite, Philistine and (other) Greek influences in Judaism as well. There is virtually nothing in the way of corroberating archaeological or historical evidence to substantiate the accounts in the Bible of David and Soloman or their kingdoms. What the bible appears to be is a weaving of threads from several different traditions into a national tradition which describes the contributors as evil Pagans. The material leading up to the current era seems more tangible, but must be taken with a grain of salt as well.

          And then there is Mithraism as a probable candidate for influencing Christianity.

          Originally posted by Hrodberht
          Your speculation about the introduction of Christianity to the Goths by the Alans is interesting. Would you have any more information?
          I don't have a lot in the way of tangible evidence. It's simply based on the observation that the Goths were situated north of the Black Sea and the Armenians were among the first people to convert to Christianity. That would have put the Goths geographically close to Christians to their east. There are huge eraser marks all over the history of that region. Bear in mind that Greek Civilization had been well established along the northern Black Sea coast for centuries before the Goths arrived.

          It would be interesting to examine the genetic evidence for the Gothic and Greek presence north of the Pontus Euxinus. This is just a tiny hint of what was there during the time of Plato: http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_1_4.html

          I ran some queries against the http://www.yhrd.org database, and came up with some very interesting hits in Eastern Europe. One group that seems to be kin are the Csangos Transylvania http://csango.ro/photo05.htm. According to National Gographic they claim to be descendents of the Huns. My guess is they are descendents of people the Huns conquerored, and perhaps a bit of Hun as well.

          So it looks like I'm related to Count Dracula.

          A note about the Huns: There were two different groups of people called Huns. There were Hephthalites, and the rest of the Huns. One report I read about DNA extracted from a Hunish City in China indicated they were probably a mix of Mongol and European types.

          Originally posted by Hrodberht
          Half-relatedly, do we have any proper interpreters of allelic values here? As I am not yet knowledgeable in this area, I would be grateful if anyone could point out any population genetics and ethnical implications of my Y-DNA Haplogroup G STR markers:

          DYS393: 13 DYS439: 12 DYS388: 12 DYS385a: 14
          DYS19: 15 DYS389-1: 12 DYS390: 22 DYS385b: 14
          DYS391: 10 DYS389-2: 17 DYS426: 11 DYS392: 11
          I'll see if I can come up with anything. Do you know your haplogroup for sure?

          Originally posted by Hrodberht
          Perhaps I have a Hg G variant that is common in the gnostic Syrian sect of the Druzes instead of the Alano-Ossetes, who knows?
          The Druzes are interesting people. I came across them wile looking into an article on MtDNA haplotype X. I wonder if they are they connected to the ancient Sabian or Saba?
          Last edited by Hetware; 19 January 2006, 08:52 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hrodberht
            According to the Border Reiver's site and Hg G expert Ray Banks, G could be evidence of possible Sarmatian-Alanic lineage.

            http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....il/haplo_g.htm

            http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/G2Ideas

            http://www.members.cox.net/morebanks/MoreG2

            I have looked more into this absolutely captivating topic of the resettled Sarmatians and Alans. Historians and scholars think these Irano-Aryans seemingly brought heavy cavalry, the chivalric-knightly ethos, the King Arthur-Holy Grail mythos, and Iranian dualism in the form of the Cathar heresy into the West. I am totally intrigued by any indirect relationship to these world-historical people. Curiously enough, I have been since childhood irresistably drawn to the Holy Grail mythos and the Western dualistic religion tradition of Iranian-Aryan origins in the West (Marcion, the Paulicians, the Bogomils and Cathars, etc.). In my family's case there are also obscure connexions to the lesser European aristocracy.

            http://www.hungarianquarterly.com/no144/p113.html

            "Under the Emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180) the Roman Army campaigned for eight years in Pannonia Barbarica (i.e., in the central and northern parts of the Carpathian Basin, north and east of the Roman limes along the Danube) against the Quadi, a German tribe, and Sarmatians and Alans, Iranian speaking barbarians who came from east of the Carpathians, from the south Russian steppe and from the Lower Danube Plains near the Black Sea. After hard but victorious battles, 5,500 Sarmatian/Alanian heavy cavalry (called cataphractarii, i.e. clothed fully in scale armour) consisting of prisoners taken in war were posted to Britain in 175. Marcus Aurelius sent these warriors to Britannia not only to keep them out of trouble in Pannonia Barbarica but also to deploy them beyond Hadrian's Wall.2 These Sarmatians are known to have been stationed in permanent camps outside the Roman forts at Ribchester in Lancashire, Chester, and elsewhere. The Sarmatian enclaves - especially the one at Ribchester, a Lancashire site known in ancient times as Bremetennacum veteranorum - survived until the end of the Roman era in the late 4th century A.D.

            The tombstone fragments of a Sarmatian/Alanian standard bearer were found at Chester (Deva) in 1890. This is unique evidence of the presence of heavily armoured Sarmatian cavalry from the earliest third century A.D. The two fragments of the tombstone (now in the Grosvenor Museum in Chester) show a horseman wearing a cloak and turning to the right. He holds aloft, with both hands, a dragon standard of the Sarmatian/Alanian type, and his conical helmet, with a vertical metal frame, is of the same pattern. A sword hangs at his right. Both man and horse are shown clad in tightly fitting scale armour. This attire for man and mount was characteristic of Sarmatian/Alanian heavy cavalry.
            ...

            The closed society of Sarmatian cataphractarii in Britain was able to maintain its ethnic features during the Late Roman period and afterwards. One reason is that their troops, called cuneus Sarmatorum, equitum Sarmatorum Bremetennacensium Gordianorum were not part of any military organization in active service. Consequently, after the withdrawal of the Roman army, they continued to live on their accustomed sites (Chester, Ribchester, etc.). They were still called Sarmatians after 250 years. A semihistoric Arthur lived about A.D. 500. He was very probably a descendant of those Alan horsemen, a battle leader of the Romanized Celts and Britons against the Anglo-Saxons, who invaded Britain after the Roman army had withdrawn. Arthur and his military leaders could therefore manage to train the natives as armoured horseman after Iranian patterns against the attacks of Angles and Saxons fighting on feet until their victory at Badon Hill."......

            http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/GRAIL.htm

            "In our 1966 Journals of Hungarian Studies we studied the Sarmatian presence in England and their influence upon the arts, fashion, mythology of the Islands along with the establishment of horse breeding and cavalry. ...

            In the January and February 1997 edition of the Archeological Journal Scott C. Littleton who is professor of anthropology at Occidental College in Los Angeles has written an article entitled Were Sarmatians the source of Arthurian legend? He also makes mention that in 175 AD Marcus Aurelius dispatched 5,500 Iazygs from the Danube region. There is also evidence of Sarmatians in the region. In Professor Littleton’s opinion it is from their culture that the Arthur legend originated along with the legend of the Holy Grail.

            The writer of the article mentions that the first commander of the Sarmatians was Lucius Artorius Castus. According to the inscription on a stelae he led his troops to Gaul in 184 to quench a rebellion. Like the legendary King Arthur, he too led a cavalry into the European arena. “The first Sarmatian leader of the Ribchester contingent probably took on the title artorius, borrowing his commander’s name. A subsequent leader may have been King Arthur, the “Artorius, dux bellorum (war leader)...” writes professor Littleton. King Arthur saved Britain by defeating the Saxons at Badon hill in 510 AD. We did discuss the further implications of this title in our previous Journal. We also discussed the Sarmatian Yazyg affiliations at the same time.

            Professor Littleton discusses a relationship between the Sarmatians, Scythians and the Alans. The entire legend of King Arthur and his court, the Round Table, the Holy Grail may all have had Sarmatian origins. He identifies Sir Lancelot with a leading personality of the Alans. The legends of the Holy Grail later became embellished with Christian myths that never really found favor in the eyes of the Church. The first written document of the Round Table came from the works of Wace of Jersey entitled Roman de Brut, dated 1155 AD (3, Vol.10:208)."....

            http://www.smu.edu/arthuriana/teachi...ia_malcor.html

            "Evidence suggests that the tales of Arthur, Lancelot and other Knights were brought into Europe by various groups of invading Sarmatians and Alans. People sensed that the stories somehow belonged together, so they combined them. Variations reflect each invading group's history and traditions. ...

            The Lancelot and Grail material seem to be derived from the same source as the sagas of the Narts, and the agent of transmission was most likely the Alans of Gaul."

            http://groups.msn.com/AncientWisdomN...holygrail.msnw

            Wolfram claimed in his 'Parzival' (ca. 1200-1210;16.827.1-2) that Chretien de Troyes had failed to present the 'true' story of the Holy Grail. While Wolfram's narrative differs in many details from Chretiens, the differences between these and other continental Grail narratives can be accounted for through the effect of historical events upon a single tradition that was shared by the Alans. Wolfram drew heavily on sources from southern Gaul for his Grail material. In addition to place descriptions and personal names, it is quite likely that he took his patterns for his story from the south as well. In 'Parzival' the Grail is described as a rock on which the names of the guardians, who are called "Templars", appear. The Knights Templar, who supplied the name for these guardians, are the traditional heirs of the treasure of the Temple of Solomon following the demise of the Cathar heresy. Some of the Templars were associated with the Alan families of southern Gaul, just as the Cathars were. It is likely that Wolfram's source was a variant of an Alanic story preserved by these descendants of southern Gaul.

            Markale sees strong parallels between Wolfram's 'Parzival' and the Iranian "Conte de la Perle", which is Manichaean in character. He believes that this similarity is lacking in other Grail legends, and he proposes that Wolfram made a conscious substitution of the stone for the vessel with blood or for Chretiens "deep dish". Wolfram's Grail has been repeatedly described as "Germano-Iranian", and attempts to explain this connection have ranged from influence through the Cathars in the south of France to oriental tales brought back to Europe by Crusaders. Friedrich von Suhtschek "maintained the Arthurian cycle to be of Iranian origin and Wolfram's 'Parzival' and Gawain romance a free translation from the Persian", and Closs argued that instead of a direct translation, the story of the Grail had been supplied by "a long forgotten source" of Persian origin. Closs also maintained that the Grail had its origin on the "borders of Persia and Afganistan", citing in partial support the connection between Wolfram and Manichaean beliefs. Closs credited Arabs and Crusaders with the transmission of the legends, with the Albigensians providing fertile ground for such legends to take root. Markale felt the Wolfram's 'Parzival', which claims the mysterious Kyot as its source, is the only Grail romance that exhibits Cathar-like thought. Waite went farther with this notion, claiming that this reference to Kyot is the only literary remnant of the Grail tradition of southern France. Wolfram does not use the prologue, which links 'Parzival's family to the Orient on the father's side, but he does link the line of Gahmuret, which is from the East, to the House of Anjou.

            sorry hollywood but arthur wasnt roman .if anything he was a decendent of joseph of arimathea. but not a roman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jim Denning
              sorry hollywood but arthur wasnt roman .if anything he was a decendent of joseph of arimathea. but not a roman



              from "JASHER (The Upright Record )
              "...the lion of Judah,The Root of David ,Hath Prevailed to Open the book..."
              Chapter LXXVII

              1. Adikam was twenty years old when he reigned over Egypt, he reigned four years.
              2. In the two hundred and sixth year of Israel’s going down to Egypt did Adikam reign over Egypt, but he continued not so long in his reign over Egypt as his fathers had continued in their reigns.
              3. For Melol his father reigned ninety four years in Egypt, but he was ten years sick and died, for he had been wicked before the Lord.
              4. And all the Egyptians called the name of Adikam Pharaoh like the name of his fathers, as was their custom to do in Egypt.
              5. And all the wise men of Pharaoh called the name of Adikam Ahuz, for short is called Ahuz in the Egyptian language.
              6. And Adikam was exceedingly ugly, and he was a cubit and a span and he had a great beard which reached to the soles of his feet.
              7. And Pharaoh sat upon his father’s throne to reign over Egypt, and he conducted the government of Egypt in his wisdom.
              8. And whilst he reigned he exceeded his father and all the kings in wickedness, and he increased his yoke over the children of Israel.
              9. And he went with his servants to Goshen to the children of Israel, and he strengthened the labor over them and he said unto them, complete your work, each day’s task, and let not your hands slacken from our work from this day forward as you did in the days of my father.
              10. And he placed officers over them from amongst the children of Israel, and over these officers he placed taskmasters from amongst his servants.
              11. And he placed over them a measure of bricks for them to do according to that number, day by day, and he turned back and went to Egypt.
              12. At that time the taskmasters of Pharaoh ordered the officers of the children of Israel according to the command of Pharaoh, saying;
              13. Thus says Pharaoh, do your work each day, and finish your task, and observe the daily measure of bricks; diminishing not any thing.
              14. And it shall come to pass that if you are deficient in your daily bricks, I will put your young children in their stead.
              15. And the task masters of Egypt did so in those days as Pharaoh has ordered them.
              16. And whenever any deficiency was found in the children of Israel’s measure of their daily bricks, the taskmasters of Pharaoh would go to the wives of the children of Israel and take infants of the children of Israel to the number of bricks deficient, they would take them by force from their mother’s laps, and put them in the building instead of bricks;
              17. Whilst their fathers and mothers were crying over them and weeping when they heard the weeping voices of their infants in the wall of the building.
              18. And the taskmasters prevailed over Israel, that the Israelites should place their children in the building, so that a man placed his son in the wall and put mortar over him, whilst eyes wept over him and his tears ran down upon his child.
              19. And the task masters of Egypt did so to the babes of Israel for many days, and no one pitied or had compassion over the babes of the children of Israel.
              20. And the number of all the children killed in the building was two hundred and seventy, some whom they had built upon instead of the bricks which had been left deficient by their fathers, and some whom they had drawn dead from the building.
              21. And the labor imposed upon the children of Israel in the days of Adikam exceeded hardship that they performed in the days of his father.
              22. And the children of Israel sighted every day on account of their heavy work, for they had said to themselves, behold when Pharaoh shall die, his son will rise up and lighten our work!
              23. But they increased the latter work more than the former, and the children of Israel sighed at this and their cry ascended to God on account of their labor.
              24. And God heard the voice of the children of Israel and their cry, in those days, and God remembered to them his covenant which he had made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
              25. And God saw the burden of the children of Israel, and their heavy work in those days, and he determined to deliver them.
              26. And Moses the son of Amram was still confined in the dungeon in those days, in the house of Reuel the Midianite, and Zipporah the daughter of Reuel did support him with food secretly day by day.
              27. And Moses was confined in the dungeon in the house of Reuel for ten years,
              28. And at the end of ten years, which was the first year of the reign of Pharaoh over Egypt, in the place of his father.
              29. Zipporah said to her father Reuel, no person inquiries or seeks after the Hebrew man, whom thou didst bind in prison now ten years.
              30. Now therefore, if it seems good in thy sight, let us send and see whether he is living or dead, but her father knew not that she had supported him.
              31. And Reuel her father answered and said to her, has ever such a thing happened that a man should be shut up in a prison without food for ten years, and that he should live?
              32. And Zipporah answered her father, saying, thou hast heard that the God of the Hebrews is great and awful, and does wonders for them at all times.
              33. He it was who delivered Abraham from Ur of the Chaldeans, and Isaac from the sword of their father, and Jacob from the angel of the Lord who wrestled with him at the ford of Jabbuk.
              34. Also with this man he has done many things, he delivered him from the river of Egypt and from the sword of Pharaoh, and from the children of Cush, so also can he deliver him from famine and make him live.
              35. And the thing seemed good in the sight of Reuel, and he did according to the word of his daughter, and sent to the dungeon to ascertain what became of Moses.
              36. And he saw, and behold the man Moses was living in the dungeon, standing upon his feet, praising and praying to the God of his ancestors.
              37. And Reuel commanded Moses to be brought out of the dungeon, so they shaved him and he changed his prison garments and ate bread.
              38. And afterwards Moses went into the garden of Reuel which was behind the house, and he there prayed to the Lord his God, who had done mighty wonders for him.
              39. And it was whilst he prayed he looked opposite to him, and behold a saffire stick was placed in the ground, which was planted in the midst of the garden.
              40. And he approached the stick and he looked, and behold the name of the Lord God of hosts was engraved thereon, written and developed upon the stick.
              41. And he read it and stretched forth his hand and he plucked it like a forest tree from the ticket, and the stick was in his hand.
              42. And this was the stick with which all the works of our God were performed, after he created heaven and earth, and all the host of them, seas, rivers and all their fishes.
              43. And when God had driven Adam from the garden of Eden, he took the stick in his hand and went and tilled the ground from which he was taken.
              44. And the stick came down to Noah and was given to Shem and his descendants, until it came into the hand of Abraham the Hebrew.
              45. And when Abraham had given all he had to his son Isaac, he also give him this stick.
              46. And when Jacob had fled to Padan-aram, he took it into his hand, and when he returned to his father he had not left it behind him.
              47. Also when he went down to Egypt he took it into his hand and gave it to Joseph, one portion above his brethren, for Jacob had taken it by force from his brother Esau.
              48. And after the death of Joseph, the nobles of Egypt came into the house of Joseph, and the stick came into the hand of Reuel the Midianite, and when he went out of Egypt, he took it in his hand and planted it in his garden.
              49. And all the mighty men of the Kinites tried to pluck it when they endeavored to get Zipporah, his daughter, but they were unsuccessful.
              50. So the stick remained planted in the garden of Reuel, until he came who had a right to it and took it.
              51. And when Reuel saw the stick in the hand of Moses, he wondered at it, and he gave him his daughter Zipporah for a wife.




              so the story of the rod of power is older then christ maybe 1400 years or so before christ and a whole lot more then the roman nation

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jim Denning
                sorry hollywood but arthur wasnt roman .if anything he was a decendent of joseph of arimathea. but not a roman
                I do not believe anybody claimed that Arthur was "Roman". I have not read the book, but the review is certainly suggestive. Victor H. Mair is one of the leading experts on ancinent East-West exchanges.

                http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/2/ha2tf.htm
                C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor's
                From Scythia to Camelot

                by

                Victor H. Mair,
                University of Pennsylvania

                The story of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table is perhaps the best known legend in the world: witness the widespread infatuation with Camelot some thirty years ago. When I was a student at Dartmouth College about the same time, I was inducted into an old honor society called Casque and Gauntlet. In a most solemn ceremony, each member of the society was bestowed the name of one of the figures in the legend and thenceforth we steeped ourselves in the lore of that merry band of knights (we thought we were being very English). Casque and Gauntlet continues at Dartmouth and there are similar societies on other campuses. As another indication of how much alive the legend is in our own time, I recently saw reported in several major newspapers wire service accounts of the announcements by a lay religious order in Italy and an amateur historian in England that they each possessed the Holy Grail!

                Given our intimate familiarity with this hoary tale, it is remarkable how mistaken is our understanding of its origins. Common wisdom considers the legend of King Arthur to be English to the core, while scholarly tomes analyze its presumed Celtic roots. To the average person, it would seem preposterous to assert that the Arthurian cycle is fundamentally Scythian. In the first place, only the tiniest fraction of the population will ever have heard of the Scyths. This only goes to show what a herculean task of reeducation is required in order to comprehend the true outlines of our own history. This splendid revisionist work by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor makes an excellent beginning in that compelling endeavor. One can only hope that its impact will be enormous.
                I remain skeptical regarding these kinds of speculations. Nonetheless, there is solid historical support for some aspects of the model.

                Regarding the Cathars, they certainly were in the right place at the right time to have had Alanic precursors.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hetware
                  If we accept the prevailing view that the Scythians were Iranian, and that the Saka and Scythians were basically the same people (in so much as such a vast categorization is applicable), in view of the linguistic and genetic evidence we might well conclude that the Saxons are the sons of Sakas. I'm not sure what the argument is for ascribing Sarmation ethnicity to the Allani. They are often held to have been Aryan, that is "Iranian".

                  there where persians and medes and assyrians who recorded on the behiston rock the movement of people called kumri from israel to between the medes these people named Khumri (out of the Biblical name Omri) and goes through Gimmira and the Greek Kimmerioi to Cimmerian. They have been known by many names Milesians, Gimri , Scythians, Saccasunni , Gauls ,Sakka which comes from Isaac and becomes Saxon.
                  When we think of the Celts.We must think of them as a language.Were the Saka and Scythians It is like the Spanish Language. The Mexicans are different form the Spanish however they speak the same language. They are also different races from the Aryan race to the Scotti race.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hrodberht
                    Right on target about the Irano-Aryan influence in Christianity. The notable German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer argued for rigorously separating the superimposed Judaic elements from the Indo-Aryan core of Christianity.

                    Your speculation about the introduction of Christianity to the Goths by the Alans is interesting. Would you have any more information?
                    ?

                    I sense this is german relativism in its finest. Christianity is from the jewish beginning.its founder is jewish . To suppose otherwise is to say king george founded the united states of america. the introduction to gauls was started by joseph of arimathia and larzarus with mary mother of jesus and mary magdeline 38 ad. Pontius piliate died on a hill in britiany [france] as a christian.One does wonder why the christian world doesnt teach its history. I mean it is such a better story then what people think happened.
                    joseph of arimathea the minister of minning for palistine would have dealt with the tin minners in glastonbury. and he was jesus uncle and took care of him after joseph the carpenters death. ever wonder how a 12 year old kid talked to the sandhedran? being a nephew of one of them would of helped.

                    the ignorance of the history is always a mistake. how many times have you heard or been told failure to know the history is to be doomed to repeat it.
                    you cant take science, religion ,politics, history,arts, sports and all the other areas of human activity and ignore one third of them. mistakes will follow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hetware,

                      Dracula/Vlad Tepes definitely seems like a "Royal Scythian", Hephthalites/White Hun type to me. Green eyes, aquiline nose, etc., derivative of the Indo-Iranic upper class of the Eurasian Huns. I would be excited to be related to such folks.

                      As to confirmation of my Hg, there is unpleasant confusion. The Genographic Project site guaranteed me a SNP test, but now the FTDNA personal page tells me my haplogroup has *not* been determined, what a great letdown. I am confusedly seeking answers.

                      Mr. Denning,

                      Could you spell out exactly what you mean by German relativism? Germans have historically been at the forefront of the progress of science against pseudoreligious superstition and obscurantism, so your characterization seems irrational.

                      As to British-Israelism/British-Zionism, I addressed this phariseeical, ethnomasochistic mass delusion in another thread.

                      See Julius Evola on the forces behind this tragic nonsense:

                      http://thompkins_cariou.tripod.com/id34.html

                      IMPERIAL BRITISH-ISRAELISM:
                      JUSTIFICATION FOR AN EMPIRE

                      http://www.revneal.org/Writings/british.htm

                      If there is ever any survey of European aristocratic DNA, genetic data will confirm that the most ancient and endogomy-practicing royalty of the West has no genetic connexion to Afro-Asiatic Bedouins. Hard science will explode the British-Israel psychosis.
                      Last edited by Hrodberht; 19 January 2006, 11:16 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hrodberht
                        Hetware,

                        Dracula/Vlad Tepes definitely seems like a "Royal Scythian", Hephthalites/White Hun type to me. Green eyes, aquiline nose, etc., derivative of the Indo-Iranic upper class of the Eurasian Huns. I would be excited to be related to such folks.
                        After investigating a bit, it turns out I'm not so lucky. That is if I am to trust what's on the Internet. The claim is that Dracula was a male descendant of Genghis Khan. Though I have distant cousins in Mongolia, - according to my test results - I do not believe I am of the same haplogroup as the infamous Genghis.

                        I'm not sure where you came up with "aquiline nose" from "Royal Scythian". Hephtheline, maybe, but this is my concept of what Scythians from that neck of the woods looked like:

                        http://baldur.globalsymmetry.com/gs-...aka-buddha.jpg

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jim Denning
                          I sense this is german relativism in its finest. Christianity is from the jewish beginning.its founder is jewish . To suppose otherwise is to say king george founded the united states of america. the introduction to gauls was started by joseph of arimathia and larzarus with mary mother of jesus and mary magdeline 38 ad. Pontius piliate died on a hill in britiany [france] as a christian.One does wonder why the christian world doesnt teach its history. I mean it is such a better story then what people think happened.
                          joseph of arimathea the minister of minning for palistine would have dealt with the tin minners in glastonbury. and he was jesus uncle and took care of him after joseph the carpenters death. ever wonder how a 12 year old kid talked to the sandhedran? being a nephew of one of them would of helped.

                          the ignorance of the history is always a mistake. how many times have you heard or been told failure to know the history is to be doomed to repeat it.
                          you cant take science, religion ,politics, history,arts, sports and all the other areas of human activity and ignore one third of them. mistakes will follow.
                          Your sense is correct Jim. I guess we are to forget the fact that after the fall of the Temple (as Christ predicted) that for a while Judaism and Christianity was taught under the same roof. I guess we are to forget that the Legend of the Holy Grail started in Southwestern corner of England with the Dumonii Celts of that area and they had long trade with the Phonecians with tin being mined in the hills.

                          All point to a Middle East connection with the celts of Southwest England both in trade and culture. Nothing German about it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hrodberht
                            Hetware,


                            Mr. Denning,

                            Could you spell out exactly what you mean by German relativism? Germans have historically been at the forefront of the progress of science against pseudoreligious superstition and obscurantism, so your characterization seems irrational.

                            As to British-Israelism/British-Zionism, I addressed this phariseeical, ethnomasochistic mass delusion in another thread.
                            .

                            German relativism? is when these scientists and scholars went to universitys and removed all mentions on anything about god . thats why the colleges off this world as so absent of any mention of god. these people where the founders of the aryianism that swept germany.
                            you know the pulitzer prize winners who worked for i.g.farben and ran auschwitz.yeah the ss didnt run auschwitz I.g.farben did . before you fall down laughing read the book The crimes and opunishment of i.g.farben by joseph borkin. who was an american investigator and eventually the prosecutor of i.g.farben and New jersey standard. who durring the war HIDE THE FORMULA OF SYNTHETIC OIL,RUBBER AND GAS FROM THE AMERICAN GOVT AND SOLDIERS in ww2.
                            The role rockerfeller and the kennedys played. but to get back to the aryianism the pulitzer prize winners toasted and they smelled the burning bodies . the best and the brightest the world had to offer . who needed any mention of god when you can be one. margaret sanger was one lol. yeah germany had some smart scientists. smart enought to avoid prosecution at neuremburg.


                            British isrealism is a bunch of nuts . i concider myself a keltoi isrealite
                            and my dna backs it up. i dont believe the queen needs to give anyone the septre as the richard brothers did . rather i believe the only reason she is there is Cause god wants her there. I believe in history and archeology they say people crossed the mts. from assyria and spread across the continent of europe. which they did. Dna says many many western euopeans like irish match askenazis. who come from the same migration. what a surprise that is.

                            one only has to see the world german relativism has allowed. Isnt it great genocides every decade

                            you think i bother you saying this you should see the email i exchange with the poor aryian taught kids. who start thinking i am one of them lol. by the time they stop emailing they want to blow my house up which is whats crossing your mind reading this.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jim Denning
                              you know the pulitzer prize winners who worked for i.g.farben and ran auschwitz.yeah the ss didnt run auschwitz I.g.farben did . before you fall down laughing read the book The crimes and opunishment of i.g.farben by joseph borkin. who was an american investigator and eventually the prosecutor of i.g.farben and New jersey standard. who durring the war HIDE THE FORMULA OF SYNTHETIC OIL,RUBBER AND GAS FROM THE AMERICAN GOVT AND SOLDIERS in ww2.
                              The role rockerfeller and the kennedys played. but to get back to the aryianism the pulitzer prize winners toasted and they smelled the burning bodies . the best and the brightest the world had to offer . who needed any mention of god when you can be one. margaret sanger was one lol. yeah germany had some smart scientists. smart enought to avoid prosecution at neuremburg..

                              at the end of the war he found the german lawyer for i..g.farbern captured at the end of the war . he still had all his paper in one city protected from bombing.
                              he was the i.g.farben lawyer who ran the meeting i.g.farben and jersey standard requested on 5 dec 1941. this meeting was to arraign the protection of the patterns by the cartel. like i said he still had all the papers. both companies asked Joe kennedy the father to arrainge the meeting in the hauge.joe was the american ambasidor to the court of st james in britian.
                              the date makes people wonder what they all knew of events soon to happen in a couple of days 7 dec 1941. they hid the pattern of synthetic gas oil and rubber from the american govt til 1945
                              auschwitz was a plant that produced this synthetic oil rubber and gas for the germn war machine

                              you all might find this book very interesting
                              i g. farben was broken up in bayer basf and hoerst with the american ig. at albany gaf
                              bayer employed and paid dr mengle lol

                              now what was that about intellectual german scholars

                              Comment

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