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12 marker or 25 marker to determine where my paternal line came from?

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  • 12 marker or 25 marker to determine where my paternal line came from?

    Hello i ordered a 12 marker y dna test and a 25 marker dna test the first one the 12 marker dna test came back with wales as country of origin for my paternal line. The 25 marker test came back with germany as country of origin. So which one am i to look at as the one that is the one where my paternal lineage originated from? As it seems most of the other dna tests suggest that i am more german (more recently on the timeline) opposed to welsh or english. I am wondering this because on the website houseofnames.com there are 3 lines of my surname that has origins and if my origin in wales that means the english line or if it is german then i will need to know which line of jacobs to choose from and from what i understand already is that my paternal y dna chromosones are more related to germany as country of origin so where does the 12 marker wales country factor into this equation and why? please leave me your thoughts and ideas as to which test is the right origin of my surname.
    Thanks,
    Tyler

  • #2
    The strong recommendation is not to make any judgements about matches unless the match is at the 37 marker or, better, 67 marker level. A match at either 12 or 25 markers is of very low resolution and in many cases represents a common ancestor over 1,000 years ago. It could be as many as 2-3,000 years ago if the haplogroup is R1b and the two matches are in different subclades of R1b. If your haplogroup is R1b of some sort, you can misinterpret the significance of matches very easily when looking at 12 and 25 marker matches. What's your haplogroup?

    I don't think you should take matches at 12 or 25 markers as something to base your genealogy on, especially when one match or matches at the 12 marker level are Welsh and the match or matches at the 25 marker level are German. That's not how genetic genealogy works.

    Also, realize that in most cases DNA matches will only give you clues about your ancestry. Those clues then have to be followed up in paper trail research. It's only in a few cases that DNA test results will give you a "slam dunk" answer, such as when a male adoptee finds his birth father and there's no doubt of that from the test results.

    My advice is to upgrade to 37 or 67 markers and join the appropriate surname and haplogroup projects. The administrators of the projects can help you understand your specific results better and advise you on possible further testing.
    Last edited by MMaddi; 12 August 2014, 09:40 PM.

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    • #3
      Thank you for your reply. I have tested at the 37 level and it came back with no matches, after speaking with ftdna staff they told me it would be pointless to test for 67 if i didnt come up with a match on the 37 level. also my haplogroup is E-L542 do you know anything about that group?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tyler89 View Post
        Thank you for your reply. I have tested at the 37 level and it came back with no matches, after speaking with ftdna staff they told me it would be pointless to test for 67 if i didnt come up with a match on the 37 level. also my haplogroup is E-L542 do you know anything about that group?
        A quick search suggests that it's equivalent to E-V13, which according to Wikipedia (caveat emptor!) appears to originate in SE Europe ... but also has a high frequency in some parts of Wales. MMaddi's suggestion regarding joining one of the surname or haplogroup projects is almost certainly the best way to proceed for now.

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        • #5
          You lack of matches is likely due to the poverty of SE Europe and the unpopularity of DNA in much of western Europe although that is changing. If you do match in America it is likely to be in Illinois and the Chicagoland area 1st and California 2nd.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by B52 View Post
            You lack of matches is likely due to the poverty of SE Europe and the unpopularity of DNA in much of western Europe although that is changing. If you do match in America it is likely to be in Illinois and the Chicagoland area 1st and California 2nd.
            Let me expand on that. It wouldn't let me do more than one edit per 15 minute time frame:

            You lack of matches is likely due to the poverty of SE Europe and the unpopularity of DNA in much of western Europe although that is changing. If you do match in America it is likely to be in Illinois and the Chicagoland area 1st and California 2nd.

            I worked in Europe for a while and any matches you have in Germany and UK are as likely recent immigrants out of the former Yugoslavia or from an ancient migration associated with the conversion of people in the area of the old Serbia to Christianity and the further spread of these Christianized families throughout Europe via missionary work but to a much lesser degree than in the area of old Serbia as most of Europe was converted to Christianity via multiple routes of missionary work.

            houseofnames.com is not a source for determining the origin of your last name. They are there to get ad clicks. A name like Tyler as a first name suggests you are American and your family has been here a while. Your last name may have been Anglicized as many of the last names in my family tree have changed substantially over the centuries.

            If you have no family tree as in a paper trail of census and other written research done than you must take it your ancestry is English as that is the most common last name source of the last name when it occurs in the USA. I believe, your ancestors migrated out of the old Serbia throughout areas of Europe spreading Christianity and charity work. Of course I can't prove that. The very light amount of research I did on Google (with strict filter so a to not waste time) led me to this conclusion.

            Links that might interest you:

            E-V13 Haplogroup:
            https://www.facebook.com/pages/E-V13...27745627312791

            The Jacobite Christian Missionary Church:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite

            So I think your ancestors took the last name to honor the Bishop they migrated to Great Britain to do missionary work for but that's up to you and other researchers to verify.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tyler89 View Post
              Thank you for your reply. I have tested at the 37 level and it came back with no matches, after speaking with ftdna staff they told me it would be pointless to test for 67 if i didnt come up with a match on the 37 level. also my haplogroup is E-L542 do you know anything about that group?
              I don't think it's pointless to order test for Y67 if you didn't get matches in Y37. Maybe someday you will get matches. It's a very new world. Many people out there still don't know what is Y-STR test.

              I order Y111 even when I realized that I will not get any matches soon. And I was right. I didn't get any matches, not even 12 markers matches. But it's OK to me. Because I want to know the STRs I have, not just the matches. Maybe someday I will get matches here, or maybe in other place.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Parameswara View Post
                I don't think it's pointless to order test for Y67 if you didn't get matches in Y37.
                I agree. Regardless of any matches (or the lack thereof), testing more STR markers could possibly help place you more definitively in a particular subclade or cluster within your haplogroup.

                If I were you, I would consult the administrators of your haplogroup's project and ask them what further testing they would recommend.
                Last edited by Sarmat; 28 August 2014, 08:49 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sarmat View Post
                  If I were you, I would consult the administrators of your haplogroup's project and ask them what further testing they would recommend.
                  I understand there are so few people in my haplogroup who get test. So it's OK for me. Maybe I have to wait some years until many people in my haplogroup aware about genetic genealogy.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tyler89 View Post
                    Thank you for your reply. I have tested at the 37 level and it came back with no matches, after speaking with ftdna staff they told me it would be pointless to test for 67 if i didnt come up with a match on the 37 level. also my haplogroup is E-L542 do you know anything about that group?
                    If you can afford $495, you might seriously consider the Big Y test which is now on sale. It examines 10 million locations on the Y chromosome, checking known Y-SNPs but (more importantly) looking for new Y-SNPs. As more men order the Big Y, we will progressively reconstruct the male reproductive history of the human race! My own view is that the Big Y is essentially the last Y chromosome test you will ever need.

                    If you spend an additional $49 on professional analysis of your raw results (BAM file), you will also get about 400 Y-STRs (markers) and almost-complete mitochondrial DNA sequencing.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
                      If you can afford $495, you might seriously consider the Big Y test which is now on sale. It examines 10 million locations on the Y chromosome, checking known Y-SNPs but (more importantly) looking for new Y-SNPs. As more men order the Big Y, we will progressively reconstruct the male reproductive history of the human race! My own view is that the Big Y is essentially the last Y chromosome test you will ever need.

                      If you spend an additional $49 on professional analysis of your raw results (BAM file), you will also get about 400 Y-STRs (markers) and almost-complete mitochondrial DNA sequencing.
                      Most people are interested in their own family histories and not the history of the whole human race. Let the scientists do that. That is what they get paid to do. Why would anyone have to pay extra to get an analysis of their results? That should be done by FTDNA and included in their test price.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                        Let the scientists do that. That is what they get paid to do.
                        No, they aren't, and they don't. "Professional" scientists (i.e., tenured academics who live on publications and government grants) have their own agendas. The only way we citizens are going to learn an accurate prehistory of our ethnic groups is to perform the investigation ourselves, at our own expense.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
                          No, they aren't, and they don't. "Professional" scientists (i.e., tenured academics who live on publications and government grants) have their own agendas. The only way we citizens are going to learn an accurate prehistory of our ethnic groups is to perform the investigation ourselves, at our own expense.
                          The fact is that R1b is at least 25,000 years old so which ethnic group are you referring to?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                            The fact is that R1b is at least 25,000 years old so which ethnic group are you referring to?
                            Chuckle. You make my point quite well. FTDNA's haplogroup predictions and basic haplogroup tests leave us sitting at tens of thousands of years ago. To get close to the modern day--i.e., to reach modern ethnic groups--we need high-resolution SNPs, such as one gets from the Big Y test.

                            So we essentially agree: Anyone who wants to understand the genesis, expansion, and survival of his ethnic group needs the Big Y.
                            Last edited by lgmayka; 29 August 2014, 09:45 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
                              Chuckle. You make my point quite well. FTDNA's haplogroup predictions and basic haplogroup tests leave us sitting at tens of thousands of years ago. To get close to the modern day--i.e., to reach modern ethnic groups--we need high-resolution SNPs, such as one gets from the Big Y test.

                              So we essentially agree: Anyone who wants to understand the genesis, expansion, and survival of his ethnic group needs the Big Y.
                              I know the most recent ethnic group that I belong to so I don't need the Big-Y test.

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