Melungeons, Black Dutch and Black Irish

[BlackWolf]

'siyo BlackWolf,

Wado for your reply. I remember reading somewhere that even back before the removal, only about 7% of Tsalagi could accurately be described as "full" bloods. I would imagine that that percentage has been reduced through time. I have pride in both of my heritages Scotch/Cherokee. I however live out my life as Cherokee. Recently on a visit back to the Southeast I had an insight as to why it was so very important in that time to have a mixed heritage. My wife and I were at Ft Loudon speaking with the curator of the historical site. I mentioned to him that I was descended from the second interpretor of the British Garrison at the fort and my Cherokee gramma who lived in Tuskeegee Village. He welcomed me as a William Shorey descendant. It dawned on me then...to have mixed parents was to be welcomed into two different worlds. Much different from today.
Best Wishes,
Bob Threefeather

Bob Threefeathers, I am in agreement 100%. The Scotch Irish were traders in the region.

Most of these mixed bloods across the Southern U.S. were of the Scotch-Irish-5 Civilized tribes the others were greatly mixed like the North Carolina Lumbee and the Lousiana Houma Indian people.

Then there were the Mestee peoples who were mixed with Southern and Northern European (English, Irish, Turkish, Spanish, Jewish)-Native and African blood.

People such as the Brass Ankles, Melungeons, Redbones, Kentucky Browns. These people were the remnants of the totally decimated smaller Eastern tribes such as the Cheraw, Attakapa and hundreds of other tribes.

[Hetware]

this could be from the fact at least 5 invasions of people from the same source most with previious residence in spain
tuathada danaan,melisieans,firbog, english,scandanavian,anglo saxon,

I'll pass on the Tuatha dé Danaan, Melisieans, and Firbog. The English are/were an amalgam of Roman, Brythonic, Dane, Angle, Saxon, Jute, Norman, and various other Germanic and Celtic contributions, as well as, perhaps some Alani. At least that's what the historic record tells us. I am far from convinced regarding the proposed Iberian iceage refuge in Spain accounting for the significant majority of R1b in Western Europe.

I cannot comment on the Irish in this regard, but there is some pretty good genetic evidence to suggest a very ancient North African contribution to Wales via the Pheonicians.

Regarding hair color in Ireland, I recall reading a study of racial types written sometime around the 1950s that stated the highest frequency of blonds found anywhere in the world was in north west Ireland, and western Scotland. The author's criteria for classification was somewhat different from what most people go by. He considered a person with brouwn hair and blond brow to be blond. But I really cannot assess the worth of that study.

[Bob Swinea]

'siyo BlackWolf,

Wado for your reply. I remember reading somewhere that even back before the removal, only about 7% of Tsalagi could accurately be described as "full" bloods. I would imagine that that percentage has been reduced through time. I have pride in both of my heritages Scotch/Cherokee. I however live out my life as Cherokee. Recently on a visit back to the Southeast I had an insight as to why it was so very important in that time to have a mixed heritage. My wife and I were at Ft Loudon speaking with the curator of the historical site. I mentioned to him that I was descended from the second interpretor of the British Garrison at the fort and my Cherokee gramma who lived in Tuskeegee Village. He welcomed me as a William Shorey descendant. It dawned on me then...to have mixed parents was to be welcomed into two different worlds. Much different from today.
Best Wishes,
Bob Threefeather

[Astuto]

tuathada danaan,melisieans,firbog, english,scandanavian,anglo saxon,

So these groups mentioned above were only R1b? Interesting how they somehow magically maintained a single Haplogroup composition in those ancient times...

Too many posts on this forum say, R1b or some other Haplogroup exists in an area because of this movement or that. The groups often mentioned were not homogenous so one should be careful when making these claims. Some guys went west, some guys went east, etc. They moved in different directions at different times.

The rare haplogroups existing in the UK or other parts of Europe are often ascribed to Romans, Jews, Syrians, etc. Many possibilities exist for their being there. How about the possibility that they were there way before the Romans, Jews or Syrians arrived?

One surname site I read mentioned that a particular Haplogroup "is NOT European". Uhm, if they have been in Europe for thousand(s) of years.....
I wonder if they kicked that branch of the family out of the clan.

[Jim Denning]

The Armada Legend is well known whether or not it is true the dna of the Spanish and Irish are very close R1b so this very well could be the case.

.

this could be from the fact at least 5 invasions of people from the same source most with previious residence in spain
tuathada danaan,melisieans,firbog, english,scandanavian,anglo saxon,

[BlackWolf]

black irish has been spanish who came from the armarda
but i could be one as an e3b in longford

Jim, you are correct in that the term has also been used for the Black Irish in Ireland. However, in the Southern U.S. it is usually used to hide Native ancestry like the Black Dutch term. So, people using the term "Black Irish" could be of very different ancestry with a differen meaning.

Now, In the north Black Irish usually means a "Black haired" person of Irish ancestry.

The Armada Legend is well known whether or not it is true the dna of the Spanish and Irish are very close R1b so this very well could be the case.

It is known, that the further West you go in Ireland the darker the hair becomes and it is also known that the further West you go in the British Isles that R1b increases to almost 100%. The Black hair of some Irish have been said to be from "ancient" sources.

So, the label may not fit you well just with a different meaning than is used in the South.

[BlackWolf]

O'siyo tsoi ugidali,

Bob really only the Keetawah are truly full blood. The rest of us are all Mestee, though there may be some in the Snowbird community in the Smokey Mountains of the Eastern Cherokee Nation and a few in the Western Cherokee Nation.

I also am going to take the mtdna although there is no mention of Native American on that side of the family tree, they actually call themselves "Black Irish".

It is not suprising that being Black Dutch the Haplo on the paternal comes up as R1b because many of the Eastern tribes intermarried with the English and Scotch Irish.

The government was even paying the English and Irish to marry Native American Women. So what happened is these already mixed Native-Portugese-Turk-Spanish women married Englishmen and Scotch Irish not only for political reasons but also for disease prevention and these became the Mestee peoples of the south including the so called Black Dutch.

Wado, Black Wolf

[Bob Swinea]

In the Southern United States Black Irish is used for persons of mixed Scotch-Irish with Indian-Native American and/or African American or all three.

Black Dutch or Black Deutch is similar with people of German-Netherland surnames in the SOUTHERN United States being mixed with Indian-Native American and/or African American or all three.

In the North now, it may or may not be of mixed ancestry but in the Southern United States it is almost always used with people of Mestee ancestry.

The "White" in these Mestee groups populations are of Northern European, Spanish, English-Scotch-Irish, Italian, Turkish, Portugese, Gypsy and also of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

One characteritic is "Shovel teeth" (got it), dark hair of course (got that), coarse hair (got that), olive complexion (got that) and dark or dark blue eyes (got it) and a "Antolian bump" on the back of the skull (got a small one)

O'siyo wahya nigah (Black Wolf),

From one Tsalagi to another ... my family is rife with stories of being Black Dutch or Black Belly Dutch. Heck, we are mixed blood (Me'tis) Cherokee. I never knew how mixed we were until I started the DNA thing. Wow Turns out my "full blood" Cherokee gramma was Hap K like me. My friend Tony McClure wrote the difinitive book on Cherokee genealogy "Cherokee Proud" and he has an entire chapter devoted to the Black Dutch issue.
Best Wishes,
Bob tsoi ugidali (Threefeather)

[Jim Denning]

Person's of mixed ancestry may find this useful.

http://www.melungeon.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=1595569157

http://www.murrah.com/gen/redbones.htm

http://www.melungeon.org/index.cgi?cat=10092&CONTEXT=cat&BISKIT=3853132492

I don't have Blackhair for no reason, baby!

Black Wolf, Black Dutch Tsa la gyi proud!

black irish has been spanish who came from the armarda
but i could be one as an e3b in longford

[BlackWolf]

I found this one but I think there have been several, this is on only one surname through FTDNA

http://www.turkgenealogy.com/turkhistory/TurkPapers/The%20Melungeons.htm

[GregKiroKH]

That's the first I heard of that. The only time I ever heard tell of Black Irish was in reference to people in, or form Ireland from time immemorial.

Are there any genetic studies?

I have heard of these things. Usually, if you are Irish you know you are Irish American. The census takers were some times called "ignorant" because they would record racial distinctions that separated their race from their parent's race. To this day, these practices upset family conversations. German mothers would talk about dark white children and German chocolate cakes. Many German nationals too have been eager to find out more. Native Americans have been happy to tell stories of their heritage. Historians reported that it took time before people tried to pass themselves off as white when they were mixed race. Many mixed race groups continued to be proud of their heritage though, and so there were people in North American society who often grouped them with the slaves or isolated them from their America. Still, birds of a feather flocked together, and people found friends in all groups. I am glad people are finding more about themselves. I guess in Germany some people are even more careful when they hunt deer, hee hee hee (deer hair looks like human hair, hard to translate).

[BlackWolf]

In the Southern United States Black Irish is used for persons of mixed Scotch-Irish with Indian-Native American and/or African American or all three.

Black Dutch or Black Deutch is similar with people of German-Netherland surnames in the SOUTHERN United States being mixed with Indian-Native American and/or African American or all three.

In the North now, it may or may not be of mixed ancestry but in the Southern United States it is almost always used with people of Mestee ancestry.

The "White" in these Mestee groups populations are of Northern European, Spanish, English-Scotch-Irish, Italian, Turkish, Portugese, Gypsy and also of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

One characteritic is "Shovel teeth" (got it), dark hair of course (got that), coarse hair (got that), olive complexion (got that) and dark or dark blue eyes (got it) and a "Antolian bump" on the back of the skull (got a small one)

[Hetware]

not in America, it is generic

That's the first I heard of that. The only time I ever heard tell of Black Irish was in reference to people in, or form Ireland from time immemorial.

[BlackWolf]

not in America, it is generic

[Hetware]

Person's of mixed ancestry may find this useful.

http://www.melungeon.org/index.cgi?BISKIT=1595569157

http://www.murrah.com/gen/redbones.htm

http://www.melungeon.org/index.cgi?cat=10092&CONTEXT=cat&BISKIT=3853132492

I don't have Blackhair for no reason, baby!

Black Wolf, Black Dutch Tsa la gyi proud!

Black Irish is a differen thing. See Tacitus's Agricola.