Melungeons, Black Dutch and Black Irish

[Bob Swinea]

siyo BlackWolf,
My autosomal results came in over the weekend, and <gasp> I have Native Indian DNA So here I am, a Native Indian man with HapK mtDNA and Rb1 Y DNA. Go figure. hahaha
Sure wish I had a picture of grgrgramma I know I carry her inside me too.
Bob

[M.O'Connor]

There is still hope!...I have seen a Nickel with a buffalo on one side..


..you could look more like your Great Great GrandMother. We do get stuff from Mom..even though we look more to Dad because of this Y stuff..

[Bob Swinea]

'siyo BlackWolf,
You speak the truth. I am amazed as I learn more about this DNA stuff about how it is not always the best indicator of ethnicity especially as it pertains to indigenous Peoples. I am R1b on the Y side <surprise>. I am waiting on results from my autosomal DNA test. Call me a glutton for punishment, hahaha. I am looking at a picture of my biological grfather as I write this and he looks like he could have posed for the nickle way back when...me, I could pose for the buffalo. LOL
Peace danvtli,
Bob

[BlackWolf]

'sioy BlackWolf,
That is correct. My earliest Cherokee gramma [Ghigooie-b about 1720 eastern TN] is listed in Star's Old Cherokee Family Geneologies as a full-blood of Bird Clan. I am Hap K so, obviously, she was not "full". My best guess right now [no way to absolutely prove it] is that she herself was "mixed". Suspecting her gramma was European captive adopted into the Tribe. Very common on the frontier in those days and I have found numerous instances in old history books alluding to warefare in which Anglo women and children were carried off by we marauding Indians. Maybe Ghigooie's female line was tied into another nearby Tribe [Deleware?] who had already included the Anglo woman into their midst. Who can say for sure in this case. I would be happy to email with TF Scott if that person wants to. I am Indian
<<>>>>>--//:-)] Bob

O'siyo Threefeathers,

That's what I thought. You know, Haplo is not a really good indication of ethnicity. You can be 99.9% Native American and have a European Haplo or you could be 99.9% European and have a Native American Haplo.

Also, my belief is that like our Latino Hispanic Southern neighbors like most of our brothers will have EUROPEAN HAPLOGROUP R1B on the Y-Lines.

That is be because the earliest pioneers that came here were all MALE. The females would not have come except much later or not at all to a wild frontier.

Many of these persons were of mixed heritage themselves. Some have speculated Barbados and the already established English ports there before America. They would have had English citizenship and then would have intermarried on the frontier with Native women.

Many of these early pioneers were Celtic, and the were trying to get away from the more Anglo Saxon English.

Appalachia is full of our Celtic-Native American and Cherokee ancestors.

[Bob Swinea]

'sioy BlackWolf,
That is correct. My earliest Cherokee gramma [Ghigooie-b about 1720 eastern TN] is listed in Star's Old Cherokee Family Geneologies as a full-blood of Bird Clan. I am Hap K so, obviously, she was not "full". My best guess right now [no way to absolutely prove it] is that she herself was "mixed". Suspecting her gramma was European captive adopted into the Tribe. Very common on the frontier in those days and I have found numerous instances in old history books alluding to warefare in which Anglo women and children were carried off by we marauding Indians. Maybe Ghigooie's female line was tied into another nearby Tribe [Deleware?] who had already included the Anglo woman into their midst. Who can say for sure in this case. I would be happy to email with TF Scott if that person wants to. I am Indian
<<>>>>>--//:-)] Bob

[BlackWolf]

Thank you for your reply. My G Grandmother was suppose to be half American Indian from Perry Co., KY; her mother was suppose to be full blooded Indian. I have not been able to find out who her mother was. I am being told that the mtDNA can tell whether you have American Indian ancestry (I am female). How true is this? I am trying to decide whether to do a test. There is a project that I am interested in joining; I just don't know if it is worth the money. Any info would be appreciated.

Bob, your g mother was a full blood Cherokee and had a European Haplo right?

TFScott, it may help give a indication and it may not. It probably should not be the only indication since you have thousands of ancestors.

Usually, you know your already Indian or part Indian.

Of course most of these people in the Appalachian Mountains have various Indian blood in them that is where they went because they were driven off there lands.

If you were listed as Indian, Free Persons of Color or Mulatto the govt. could take your land away so they went to the lands further west up into the hills and in other parts of the South into the Swamps. It did not matter that there fathers and grand fathers were English and Scotch they were mixed breeds in the eyes of the English newcomers.

&quot;Bump&quot;

TFScott,

This "bump" is at the center of the back of the skull right where the neckline meets about the size of a golfball or smaller. It is a indication of Central Asian-Asian ancestry and also of Melungeon ancestry via Native American.

Being you are from Eastern Kentucky, you might have Melungeon ancestry and most probably some form of Native American ancestry.

One of my exact dna matches is from, Kentucky. Floyd and Magoffin Counties.

Thank you for your reply. My G Grandmother was suppose to be half American Indian from Perry Co., KY; her mother was suppose to be full blooded Indian. I have not been able to find out who her mother was. I am being told that the mtDNA can tell whether you have American Indian ancestry (I am female). How true is this? I am trying to decide whether to do a test. There is a project that I am interested in joining; I just don't know if it is worth the money. Any info would be appreciated.

[Bob Swinea]

Lets see, I have the "bump", shovel teeth with the ridge, hazel starburst eyes, my People come from Eastern TN,...ohmygosh I am a Mulengeon Cherokee American. hahahaha Thanks all. Great reading.
Bob

[BlackWolf]

I am new to this message board. I have read a little bit on the Melungeons and am curious if I fall into the group. My anscestors came from South Western Virginia and South Eastern Kentucky. I have read about some of the characteristics, but I am a little confused about the "Antolian bump". Can someone discribe it for me? I have a bump at the back of my head, so does my mom and my brother. My husband says I am an alien (he doesn't have one).

TFScott,

This "bump" is at the center of the back of the skull right where the neckline meets about the size of a golfball or smaller. It is a indication of Central Asian-Asian ancestry and also of Melungeon ancestry via Native American.

Being you are from Eastern Kentucky, you might have Melungeon ancestry and most probably some form of Native American ancestry.

One of my exact dna matches is from, Kentucky. Floyd and Magoffin Counties.

Melungeon?

In the Southern United States Black Irish is used for persons of mixed Scotch-Irish with Indian-Native American and/or African American or all three.

Black Dutch or Black Deutch is similar with people of German-Netherland surnames in the SOUTHERN United States being mixed with Indian-Native American and/or African American or all three.

In the North now, it may or may not be of mixed ancestry but in the Southern United States it is almost always used with people of Mestee ancestry.

The "White" in these Mestee groups populations are of Northern European, Spanish, English-Scotch-Irish, Italian, Turkish, Portugese, Gypsy and also of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

One characteritic is "Shovel teeth" (got it), dark hair of course (got that), coarse hair (got that), olive complexion (got that) and dark or dark blue eyes (got it) and a "Antolian bump" on the back of the skull (got a small one)

I am new to this message board. I have read a little bit on the Melungeons and am curious if I fall into the group. My anscestors came from South Western Virginia and South Eastern Kentucky. I have read about some of the characteristics, but I am a little confused about the "Antolian bump". Can someone discribe it for me? I have a bump at the back of my head, so does my mom and my brother. My husband says I am an alien (he doesn't have one).

[BlackWolf]

Simply a term to describe a Black haired person of Irish descent.

Not to break out another Civil War here but.......

SOUTHERN BLACK IRISH

In the south it is one who is a descendent of Irish indentured servants and was used as a cover for there olive complexions and black hair from Indian and mulatto blood.

NORTHERN BLACK IRISH

In the north, NEW ENGLAND area, it is simply a Black haired person of Irish ancestry which there are many. However, the term is used to describe both groups of Mestee and recent Irish ancestry. The term comes from the United States and the term is NOT from Europe. Some of the Eastern tribes of this region use this term but it is rare.

Thanks a lot!

I was always told we were Black Irish, but everyone in the family had a different idea as to what that meant. I hope that someday the testing will evolve so that more of the paternal female and maternal male influence can be measured.

[M.O'Connor]

the Gauls were already in Spain. R1B ...

I do not believe the myth that they came from Palistine to Africa to Spain as a wandering group?

They decended from Eurasia Man and moved west populating Europe. R1B some 30,000 yrs ago.
There they multiplied... till they ventured to Ireland, the later group possibly because of the Romans push.

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There were four major migrations of Celts to Briton, Scotland & Ireland from the continent during the Iron Age from about 600 BC to 50 BC.

? Cruithin / Pretani / Picts

? Érainn / Fir Bolgs / Belgae

? Laighin / Tuatha Dé Dannan / Dumnonii

? Gaédhail / Goidil / Gaels / Milesians / Féni

The first three came from Gaul to Brittain, settling in Cornwall,Devon, Wales, Scotland & Ireland.

The last came by way of Spain arriving in the south-west and the east of Ireland, and finally becoming the political hierarchy of all Ireland and Scotland.


Of these Celts in Briton, Julius Caesar wrote in 55 BC after his expedition, and invasion the following year...

“Britain is inhabited by Belgic immigrants -nearly all of them retaining the names of the tribes from which they originated. The population is exceedingly large (probably over a million) the ground thickly studded with homesteads, closely resembling those of the Gauls. By far the most civilised inhabitants are those living in Cant (Kent), a purely maritime district, whose way of life differs little from that of Gaul. All the Britons dye their bodies with wode, which produces a blue colour and gives them a more terrifying appearance in battle.”

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Taken from http://www.davidalarkin.com/celtic.htm

[M.O'Connor]

Black Irish?
Here is a pretty good look at the Black Irish Issue...

http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/

[Jim Denning]

I'll pass on the Tuatha dé Danaan, Melisieans, and Firbog. The English are/were an amalgam of Roman, Brythonic, Dane, Angle, Saxon, Jute, Norman, and various other Germanic and Celtic contributions, as well as, perhaps some Alani. At least that's what the historic record tells us. I am far from convinced regarding the proposed Iberian iceage refuge in Spain accounting for the significant majority of R1b in Western Europe.

I cannot comment on the Irish in this regard, but there is some pretty good genetic evidence to suggest a very ancient North African contribution to Wales via the Pheonicians.

Regarding hair color in Ireland, I recall reading a study of racial types written sometime around the 1950s that stated the highest frequency of blonds found anywhere in the world was in north west Ireland, and western Scotland. The author's criteria for classification was somewhat different from what most people go by. He considered a person with brouwn hair and blond brow to be blond. But I really cannot assess the worth of that study.

The Tuathada danaan were the tribe of dan [forget diana]. they left palestine before the assyains took the other 9 tribes. those 9 tribes were positioned between the meads and the asyrians as a couple million people bumper [recorded behiston rock ] as a people they called kumri but they joined the meads and beat assyria. ezra asked them to return they said no way and went across the mts and disapeared at the same time as a group named keltoi showed up. these people moved west because their familys only the first born inherited..so the other sons went west. among these tribes were the engli and germani.
the melicians were followers of a jewish teacher in eygpt they crossed north africa and then to spain. we know them as the gauls amonst others.their ancestor was geale who was in the desert with moses. Knowing no one group is one haplogroup you can see the relationships between the different peoples. Remember these people were in the connection between eygpt and assyria and babylon. Who wouldnt want to move like the palintines and alsace lorraine eventually you get sick of german tanks paying a visit.