Melungeons, Black Dutch and Black Irish

[GregKiroKH]

Oops, I could not correct my grammar errors. So it printed twice.
It seems as if lifestyles are important since Asian mixed marriages were the most popular mixed marriage in North America. Yet, the data suggest the major concerns are with black and white marriages.

(maybe no one will ever know of the grammar mistakes)

[M.O'Connor]

It's an american thing..whether it refers to the Irish Potato famine of Black Blight called Black47. or mixed ancestry is anyones preference, as it has no real defined meaning and has been applied where ever people think it fits. the Even the Spanish Armada is suspected..but the term black Irish apparently never rose in Ireland..it's an American thing as far as I can tell.

http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/

[GregKiroKH]

How about the black Hispanic people population group? Are they included with the white Hispanic group? It seems as if some black Hispanic people could pretend to be Black because it is the popular thing to do.

[BlackWolf]

It's an american thing..whether it refers to the Irish Potato famine of Black Blight called Black47. or mixed ancestry is anyones preference, as it has no real defined meaning and has been applied where ever people think it fits. the Even the Spanish Armada is suspected..but the term black Irish apparently never rose in Ireland..it's an American thing as far as I can tell.

http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/

Yeah, that's correct. In the little I have researched it seems that the Anglo Saxons treated the Scotch, Scotch Irish and Celtic British pretty cruel in the United Kingdom (i.e. the movie Rob Roy). Of course these people wanted to be rid of the Anglo Saxon British (and was the same in Ireland until just recently)

They could not own land back then, not even in America, so they became indentured servants in the Americas to eventually be able to be free and then own there own land. These settlers would have inter married the most with the Native American tribes. Therefore these mixtures became known as the Black Dutch, Black Irish, Black German, Black Italian, Melungeons etc. etc.

There was a group in South Carolina called the Brass Ankles, mostly Irish and Mulatto (both Indian/black). They were called Brass Ankles because of there former status as Indentured servants and slaves.

[M.O'Connor]

...the genetic reality in Ireland would be that european people were invading themselves for the most part if you are talking about 2000 years ago or longer...Roman's excluded for the most part.

.

[BlackWolf]

...the genetic reality in Ireland would be that european people were invading themselves for the most part if you are talking about 2000 years ago or longer...Roman's excluded for the most part.

.

Oh, how true. Not that the Irish are saints. All I am saying is that Cromwell did his part in making sure America was well colonized with oppressed Celts.

Same R1b as the Saxons, yep.

[M.O'Connor]

Yeah, that's correct. In the little I have researched it seems that the Anglo Saxons treated the Scotch, Scotch Irish and Celtic British pretty cruel in the United Kingdom (i.e. the movie Rob Roy). Of course these people wanted to be rid of the Anglo Saxon British (and was the same in Ireland until just recently)

They could not own land back then, not even in America, so they became indentured servants in the Americas to eventually be able to be free and then own there own land. These settlers would have inter married the most with the Native American tribes. Therefore these mixtures became known as the Black Dutch, Black Irish, Black German, Black Italian, Melungeons etc. etc.

There was a group in South Carolina called the Brass Ankles, mostly Irish and Mulatto (both Indian/black). They were called Brass Ankles because of there former status as Indentured servants and slaves.

Nothing really changed. You still can't own property without paying a yearly tax. you can get your investment back if someone else takes over the property and the tax resposibility. Pay the tax or they will sell your land for you, and take their tax.


.

[BlackWolf]

[QUOTE=M.O'Connor]Nothing really changed. You still can't own property without paying a yearly tax. you can get your investment back if someone else takes over the property and the tax resposibility. Pay the tax or they will sell your land for you, and take their tax.

LOL, I don't want to even get into that because it will go down the old Political road, I'll just say your correct and leave it at that.

It still is better than being a sharecropper brother.

P.S. You never truly own any land, the land owns you and one day we will return to it. We are on borrowed time anyway.

[M.O'Connor]

no rush here to return

I have some photo-copies of land leases of my ancestors from the 1800's.

A lease from 1845 lists the land owner Archibald Montgomery of the Whim, in the County of Peebles, in that part of England known as Scotland.

2 pounds 10 shillings a year for 50 acres.

[Vance Hawkins]

I intend to read more of this, and as I do I might comment, I don't know.

Here is a "little" I can say on my opinion (which is based on actual research).

The most likely "origin" of trhe Melungeons is more than likely not something, exotic, but is in reality more realistic and mundane. The more wild the claim the more strong the evidence needs to be, and this is not the case concerning the "Anatolian bump" on the head or shovel-shaped teeth or any "Melungeon" diseases. I don't think any of that is relevant at all.

1.] There are no Purtuguese shipwrecked sailors that made their way from the coast (where they might meet another Purtuguese ship that would have taken them home), but rather than remaining to be picked up by the next Portuguese tradigng vessel headed home, they went inland to the western slopes of the Appalachians. They were not a group of Turkish galley slaves abandoned by the Spanish on the Virginia coast -- there were no galley slaves in 1500 and later. Remember Coulmbus came to American in boats with SAILS, not galley slaves. These ideas are not credible in the least.

2.] Recent genealogical and historical studies -- cited and documented studies -- appear to confirm the American Indian indetity.

3.] The French word "Melungeon" means "we mix". French Huguenots DID settle in Virginia and the Carolinas, with one group settling in Monacan Town, Virginia, the original home of the Monacan Indians, in 1699. It was said that Indians still lived on the edge of town until 1702 or threabout. Many of Virginia's Indian people of that era were enslaved and might very well have mixed with Blacks. The Monacans were a Piedmont Siouan aka Piedmont Catawba people as were the Saponi, Tutelo, Occoneechee and others in Va, NC and SC.

4.] In 1942, a Virginia eugenics advocate named "Plecker" went on the rampage and said some Blacks were claiming to be "Indian", even putting "Indian" on their birth certificates. He wrote letters to state employees of the Virginia Vital statistics employees warning them of this, and even went so far as to change birth certificates from "Indian" to "mixed" on some birth certificates. There is a "Plecker's List" of surnames in several Virginia counties of people Plecker said were trying to fool them claiming they wre not Black. He went on to say if they got away with it they'd be claiming they were white in a few years, something that was intolerable to Plecker.

5.] The writing of Lewis Jarvis in a Hancock County, Tn newspaper in 1903 is interesting. He was born in 1829, and said originally the people were very Indian looking, But during his lifetime they have become "whiter" through mixing. So it would be very difficult to find a direct surname y-Chromosome test that will work, as often the original mixed race person was descended from a Caucasian male and an Indian female, much more often that the reverse, and Indian male and a Caucasian female. Later generations further mixed making finding a mt-DNA match back to an original Indian also dificult to discover.

My family -- I went to one website and found an autosomal DNA test that was possible, so I took it. It showed my lions share is Caucasian, but also said I have American Indian and sub-Sahara African blood. I also have ancestors that were living in a known Melungeon home -- Copper Creek off Stoney Creek in Scott Co., Va (SW Va) -- nearest neighbors wee 2 groups of Gibson's -- at the beginning of the known usage of the term Melungeon (they lived there from 1797-1815) and my family suranme (Wayland) is prominently found in the Minutes of Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church where the word "Melungin" is first known to have been used in 1813. I'd like for other Waylands to take the Autosomal test -- those I am known to be related to but only distantly -- to see if they also get triracial results to rule out the possibility my African and/or American Indian DNA came from other ancestors.

One more thing. Recently I wrote to a very well known Cherokee genealogist, and she replied "I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy, in Santa Claus, or the Melungeons," and she went on to say there was no proof there are any Melungeons, saying it was just another group trying to prove they were Indian when they weren't. I provided her with all the proof and documentation anyone would need and her reply was that she had no desire to read it.

I mention this because some people lose objectivity over this issue.

I can provide and cite references and will list them when I get time.

vh

[Vance Hawkins]

[QUOTE=Bob Swinea]'siyo BlackWolf,

Wado for your reply. I remember reading somewhere that even back before the removal, only about 7% of Tsalagi could accurately be described as "full" bloods.

Not so, yall! Go to Tahlequah! thre are many thousands of full bloods. Prob'ly more full bloods (or just as many) in that one town than there are in all of NC -- and they are in many other towns in Ok.

vh

[Vance Hawkins]

Best Melungeon websites

http://www.continuitypress.com/pitfals.html

http://www.geocities.com/ourmelungeons/front.html

Here are the BEST Melungeon websites

vh

[Bob Swinea]

[QUOTE=Vance Hawkins]

'siyo BlackWolf,

Wado for your reply. I remember reading somewhere that even back before the removal, only about 7% of Tsalagi could accurately be described as "full" bloods.

Not so, yall! Go to Tahlequah! thre are many thousands of full bloods. Prob'ly more full bloods (or just as many) in that one town than there are in all of NC -- and they are in many other towns in Ok.

vh

FYI- The figure I quoted in my post came directly from our Tribal Historian. He would know. The people you see in Tahlequah, not all are exclusively full blood Cherokee, but an amalgum of different Native Peoples. The 2000 Census showed that the Cherokee and our Cherokee descendants now have more people than any other Tribe. Sure surprised the Dine' If I remember correctly the number was upwards from 700,000. 7% of that number certainly would fill Tahlequah and Park Hill too a few times over. I will agree that the largest concentration of "full-bloods" are in the Rez areas. This is true of all Tribes of which I am aware.

The larger question, according to one of my Elder teachers, is "where do we Indian Americans fit in to the dominant culture"? Can we continue to be blatently "racist" to others of our own Blood; dividing arbitrarily between BigBloods and LittleBloods? Our own old Chreokee Way says that only "one drop" of Cherokee blood makes one a full member of AniYunwia. Blood quantum and all its varying arguments is an invention of the dominant culture designed ultimately to eliminate Indian People. It is my opinion that for Indian Americans to argue and to divide ourselves over blood quantum issues is like re-arranging the deck furniture on the Titanic - a useless exercise in my opinion. We have so many third-world conditions on our Rez ... our People are in need. Who has time to argue over blood quantum issues? Does that argument make a better world for the little ones growing up on the Rez? Does that argument make an inner-city Indian ghetto better?

I am doing what I can to care for our Indian Elders and to make this world better for our little ones. I hope every other Indian out there is doing the same.
These are my opinions. I mean no disrespect.
Peace,
Bob [tsoiugidali- AniYunwia]

[haplogroupc]

Nice thoughts, Bob Swinea. What exactly can an urban Indian do to help those on the rez? What kinds of things do they need?

[MAB]

The amount of blood does make a difference if you wish to register.

As for the people living on the rez (any rez), they need everything from clothing (in good condition), to financial help, some can't afford heating in the winter. These are a people marginalized in their own country with government and ranchers still trying to take what little land they still have.