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IndoEuropean R1a's origin is south Asia?

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  • IndoEuropean R1a's origin is south Asia?

    Hi, I just read wikepedia where it says " Recent findings indicate that R1a's origin is likely to be in South Asia, but probably at a date earlier than the expansion of the Indo-Iranian language family."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians
    Is this true? This would mean Indo Europeans came from South Asia. I thought they were from the Pontic-Caspian steppe area.

  • #2
    1) The matter is certainly not yet settled. Forums have continuing debates about it.

    2) The answer also depends on which branch one is talking about:

    R1a (R-M420)
    R1a1 (R-SRY10831.2)
    R1a1a (R-M17)
    R1a1a1 (R-M417)

    Only the last, R-M417, is common; R-M420*, R-SRY10831.2*, and R-M17* are all rare.

    R-M417 probably originated near the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Igmayka.
      I was talking about R1a1 (R-SRY10831.2)
      Where is the original sourcefor this?

      Wikipedia says it either originated from the Black sea area or Indus valley. Wikipedia says "The subclade R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. The subclade's parent Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1a1 is thought to have originated in either the Eurasian Steppe (north of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea) or the Indus Valley."
      Thank you

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Igmayka.
        I was talking about R1a1 (R-SRY10831.2)
        1)Where is the original source for this? Pontic-Caspian steppe or South Asia?

        Wikipedia says it either originated from the Black sea area or Indus valley. It states "The subclade R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. The subclade's parent Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1a1 is thought to have originated in either the Eurasian Steppe (north of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea) or the Indus Valley."
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-I...peans#Genetics

        2)As for R1a (R-M420)Wikepdia states "Possible place of origin : Most probably South Asia,(Sharma 2009) Central Asia (and Altai plateau), [1] or West Asia."
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a1
        I'm confused because if both R1a and R1a1 are related then they must share the same source of origin. And if their source of origin is South Asia as Wikepdia states, then doesn't that mean that both Indo-Europeans and Indo-Iranians came from South Asia and not from Pontic-Caspian steppes?

        Thank you
        PS. Please ignore my previous reply which is an incomplete reply.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hando View Post
          I'm confused because if both R1a and R1a1 are related then they must share the same source of origin.
          That is not true. Because R1a*, R1a1*, and R1a1a* are all rare, they form a chain of descent across many millennia in which one descendant, Mr. R-M417, was a true reproductive winner. It is difficult to track the chain that preceded him because evidence is so scarce.

          A recent scholarly paper asserts that R1a initially spread from (what is now) Iran.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, I will read the article.
            Also, where do you think R1a1 originated from? As I mentioned Wikepedia states the possibility of either South Asia or Pontic Caspian steppe.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hando View Post
              Thanks, I will read the article.
              Also, where do you think R1a1 originated from? As I mentioned Wikepedia states the possibility of either South Asia or Pontic Caspian steppe.
              Mal'ta boy was R and he was a long way from Iran.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                Mal'ta boy was R and he was a long way from Iran.
                Yes, but he also lived 24,000 years ago. A lot can happen in a couple dozen millennia.

                Here is one astute archaeologist's summary of the issue:
                ---
                The microblade tradition after the LGM is the first reasonable signal of movements from Siberia towards Europe.

                So you could say the archaeological evidence suggests a post-LGM movement west into eastern Europe and parts of SW Asia but the modern genetics suggest that older clades survive around Iran.
                ...
                Obviously we need some more ancient DNA for R1 clades as there is nothing between Mal'ta C. 22000BC and much later R1b and R1a after 3000BC - a nearly 20000 year gap. I think pushing further interpretation is speculative.
                ---

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                • #9
                  Where do you think R1a1 originated from? South Asia or Pontic Caspian Steppe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    Mal'ta boy was R and he was a long way from Iran.
                    That's true. But this brings up an even more interesting question. Ireland is even farther away than Iran from where the Mal'ta boy's remains were. So how can it be that R1b is found at high levels in Ireland and the rest of western Europe?

                    Oh yes, people migrate - almost forgot that. That must mean that we can't necessarily count on R1b or certainly not downstream subclades (like R1b-Z156) being native to Ireland.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                      That's true. But this brings up an even more interesting question. Ireland is even farther away than Iran from where the Mal'ta boy's remains were. So how can it be that R1b is found at high levels in Ireland and the rest of western Europe?

                      Oh yes, people migrate - almost forgot that. That must mean that we can't necessarily count on R1b or certainly not downstream subclades (like R1b-Z156) being native to Ireland.
                      It also means that R had joined the moving on program at least 24,000 years ago not 4000.
                      It is a pity that some posters wouldn't do the same.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I suggest you read this,

                        http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...up-k-m526.html

                        Basically says all R was in south-east asian and it was at least 20000 years behind its ancestors , L, T, N and O who formed Before they arrived in south-east asian ( if they ever did go to SE-Asia)

                        There is also the new haplogroup code for R .....K2b2

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                          It is a pity that some posters wouldn't do the same.
                          Spoken like an Irishman.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bartot View Post
                            I suggest you read this,

                            http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...up-k-m526.html

                            Basically says all R was in south-east asian and it was at least 20000 years behind its ancestors , L, T, N and O who formed Before they arrived in south-east asian ( if they ever did go to SE-Asia)

                            There is also the new haplogroup code for R .....K2b2
                            So instead of me being descended from K, I am now descended from K2b2. That is great news and how does that help me with breaking down the "brick wall" of 200-300 years ago?
                            All of the SNPs found in the Big-Y to date downstream of their terminal branches should have already been added to the Y-Tree. That's what the customers paid big money for.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm looking for my cousin. When I was 3 years old [almost 50 years ago ] we slept together at bunk beds but then we never saw each other again. I can't search her at facebook and all that stuff. How can I find her?

                              Comment

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