R1b1c...of course

[F.E.C.]

Hi,

do you think it is, at least partially, correct to subdivide R1b1c (the major portion of R1b) in a Western subclade, roughly corresponding to the AMH, characterized by DYS393=13 and an Eastern subclade, most often occurring in Southeastern Europe and West Asia, in which DYS393=12?

If it is, then why don't they start from here in order to better contextualize, at a geographical extent, such an "ambiguous" indication as the one provided by R1b1c? I mean, as far as I know more than 80% of the R1b European population, from Sicily to Scotland, has got the M269 marker (in my case I don't see any use for a Deep Clade Haplogroup Test at FTDNA). In the near future, if not now, will we have the opportunity to get more exhaustive indications?

I hope my English is intelligible enough

Francesco

[MMaddi]

R1b - ht 35 type

Hi,

do you think it is, at least partially, correct to subdivide R1b1c (the major portion of R1b) in a Western subclade, roughly corresponding to the AMH, characterized by DYS393=13 and an Eastern subclade, most often occurring in Southeastern Europe and West Asia, in which DYS393=12?

If it is, then why don't they start from here in order to better contextualize, at a geographical extent, such an "ambiguous" indication as the one provided by R1b1c? I mean, as far as I know more than 80% of the R1b European population, from Sicily to Scotland, has got the M269 marker (in my case I don't see any use for a Deep Clade Haplogroup Test at FTDNA). In the near future, if not now, will we have the opportunity to get more exhaustive indications?

I hope my English is intelligible enough

Francesco

Francesco,

You are correct about another form of haplogroup R1b, which originates in Anatolia/the Balkans, as opposed to Spain. This is called "haplotype 35" (ht35) while the mainstream R1b is called "haplotype 15" (ht15). There is speculation that ht35 found refuge during the Ice Age in northern/central Italy or the Balkans, while ht15 spent the Ice Age in Spain and then spread to western and northern Europe after the glaciers melted. The speculation is that ht35 represents an older form of R1b, which originated in Asia Minor or the Black Sea area.

According to this page (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....5_analysis.htm), which links ht35 with some unusual R1b haplotypes in people with British Isles ancestry, the clue that someone is an R1b ht35 is, as you say above, DYS393=12. There was also some discussion of ht35 here on the FTDNA message board 2 years ago: see http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/a...php?t-311.html

Presently, even with the expanded deep haplogroup testing at FTDNA, there is no testing available for R1b1c below M269+. However, there is another company called EthnoAncestry that has actually discovered several new SNPs for R1b1c in the last couple of months. I am presently undergoing their test for one of the new SNPs, S21, which is a marker for a subclade of R1b1c. (I've already been confirmed as R1b1c with a M269+ result.) It has even been speculated by some of the R1b gurus that I am an R1b1c ht35 because of the unusual nature of my haplotype and my Sicilian (and possibly Albanian) paternal ancestry. However, my DYS393=13, which would seem to indicate ht15, so I am skeptical about being ht35.

Mike Maddi

[Hetware]

Francesco,

You are correct about another form of haplogroup R1b, which originates in Anatolia/the Balkans, as opposed to Spain. This is called "haplotype 35" (ht35) while the mainstream R1b is called "haplotype 15" (ht15). There is speculation that ht35 found refuge during the Ice Age in northern/central Italy or the Balkans, while ht15 spent the Ice Age in Spain and then spread to western and northern Europe after the glaciers melted. The speculation is that ht35 represents an older form of R1b, which originated in Asia Minor or the Black Sea area.

That is very speculative, and there is some evidence to suggest it may not be correct. For one, AMH is found in isolated regions of Armenia. I recently read a study that suggests the apparent homogeneity of the Cantabarian population based on the presence of R1b may disguise a discontinuity representing a reconvergence of two R1b branches.

[SeanMSilver]

I'd be quite interested in hearing more about any subclade tests any of you might have, though I do trust FTDNA's quality control. I imagine if there was a viable way to perform such a test, and that it did prove significant without a margin of error, they'll come out with it.

That I'm R1b with a DYS393=12 is a curiosity to me and I'm looking forward to seeing if ht35 does prove to be a viable distinction. My family originates from Russia, though we are also Jewish (we're not sure if we're Ashkenazi, since only 7% of Ashkenazi are R1b) and have a strong oral history of being Cohanim (which existing theories still state roughly 40% of which are J2, with an insignificant portion being R1b). My close genetic matches at Y37 (and one direct match at Y25) have also similar markers and oral history.

I posted a topic on that earlier today, but I thought I'd mention it here just to throw more confusion into the R1b question.

[mollielaw]

Lawson family in KY

R1b William Lawson (The Rebel), b 1731 Scotland + Rebecca > Travis Lawson, b. 1766 VA + Maysle Simpkins > William Lawson, b. 1804 + Mary Dennis
This my family line.I am female with 3 lawson brothers. We are woking on buying a test, to test 1 my brohters. My father is Raymond Lawson, his father Frank Lawson, His Father was Charles Lawson married Lucy Lawson they were cousins., His father was David Lawson. David Had a brother named John Lawson. They were all from Falmouth KY or close to there. I was wondering if anyone else is from this line or from KY or near KY.

Mollie Lawson Ketcham.

[Gerald Lawson]

Raymond Lawson family KY

I have done a lot of research on US Lawson families and have built up a database of census records totalling 30,000 individuals.

I am certain this family were in Falmouth & Morgan Pike, Callensville, Pendleton Co. KY in 1920.

My data is available to all Lawson researchers at the address below

Gerry Lawson
[email protected]

https://www.yorksgen.info