Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

R1b 9 markers off modal

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • R1b 9 markers off modal

    This is a list of allele frequencies that supposidly represent an R1b modal haplotype.

    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11
    11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 38 12 12

    My 37 marker results differ from those numbers by 9 markers. All of the variations are limited to plus or minus 1. That convinces me that I'm in the right ballpark with R1b, but 9 markers seems like a lot. Is that an unusually high deviation within a haplogroup?

    I see there are some subclades to R1b, by FTDNA doesn't appear to test for most of these. Is that correct?

    Can I use my STR test results to resolve the R1b subclade with reasonable confidence? I haven't found much in the way of good information on this.

  • #2
    R1b - marker by marker analysis

    Originally posted by Hetware
    This is a list of allele frequencies that supposidly represent an R1b modal haplotype.

    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11
    11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 38 12 12

    My 37 marker results differ from those numbers by 9 markers. All of the variations are limited to plus or minus 1. That convinces me that I'm in the right ballpark with R1b, but 9 markers seems like a lot. Is that an unusually high deviation within a haplogroup?

    I see there are some subclades to R1b, by FTDNA doesn't appear to test for most of these. Is that correct?

    Can I use my STR test results to resolve the R1b subclade with reasonable confidence? I haven't found much in the way of good information on this.
    I was predicted as R1b by Family Tree DNA, but I was skeptical since I had no matches closer than 2 step mutations in their database which is probably about 70% R1b. I confirmed through a SNP test with another company that I am R1b1c, but with an unusual haplotype. I am off the modal values by 15 markers out of 37.

    I submitted my case to the Genealogy-DNA list for discussion which turned out to be very interesting. It seems that I might have an eastern origin (Turkey or the Balkans) for my R1b paternal line, which is not found very often in Europe. I am undergoing further SNP testing to find out more about where my R1b fits in with the majority of R1b. If you're interested in this discussion, look here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-12/1133898049

    There is a new project set up here at Family Tree DNA for R1b, which already has over 60 members. There is a very useful link on the R1b project page which will send you to a page with a color-coded analysis of the 60+ members of the project. The color code shows who is off the modal value for each of the 37 markers: light blue is 1 below the modal value, medium blue is 2 below and dark blue is 3 or more below; light red is 1 above the modal value, etc. If you look there, you'll see that there are several who are 10 or more markers off the modal value. That page is http://www.clary.org/jason/FTDNAColo...spx?kits=D6353

    I would recommend that you get a SNP test and confirm that you're R1b, which you probably are, and then go from there - join the R1b project here.

    Mike Maddi
    Co-administrator the Sicily Project

    Comment


    • #3
      Ysearch 37 STR modal summary and analysis tables

      Has anybody examined this site to determine how reliable and valuable it is?

      http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/p3modal.htm

      It looks pretty good, but you need to read the fine print about DYS389ii. I'm not sure what to make of the R1bSTR?? haplogroups. Are those official designations from the YCC, or his own inventions?

      If they are official, where can I find more information on them?

      Comment


      • #4
        R1b clusters

        Originally posted by Hetware
        Has anybody examined this site to determine how reliable and valuable it is?

        http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/p3modal.htm

        It looks pretty good, but you need to read the fine print about DYS389ii. I'm not sure what to make of the R1bSTR?? haplogroups. Are those official designations from the YCC, or his own inventions?

        If they are official, where can I find more information on them?
        I'm familiar with that page. His designation of R1bSTR?? is not official, but is considered credible analysis of clusters of similar R1b haplotypes. John McEwan, a New Zealander whose page that is, has taken R1b haplotypes from ysearch and grouped them by similar haplotypes. John is part of the genetic genealogy/population genetics community who hang out on the Genealogy-DNA e-mail list at Rootsweb.com and are very interested in trying to make sense of the R1b world. These are some of the people who are looking at recently discovered SNPs within R1b (S21, S25, S26, S28 and S29) and trying to figure out how it can be used to help in both genetic genealogy and in population genetics.

        Mike Maddi

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MMaddi
          I was predicted as R1b by Family Tree DNA, but I was skeptical since I had no matches closer than 2 step mutations in their database which is probably about 70% R1b. I confirmed through a SNP test with another company that I am R1b1c, but with an unusual haplotype. I am off the modal values by 15 markers out of 37.
          I'm a bit confused as to what the breakdown on R is. The way I understand it from the 2002 tree is that P mutated from K with 4 separate SNP mutation. 92R7, P27, M45 and M74. It's worth mentioning that Thomas Jefferson was K - according to one author, at least. M207 split R from the rest of P, which, quite surprizingly puts Q very close to modern Europeans. Q is the dominant paternal line of the Amerinds.(*)

          R then split into R* and R1 with the M173 mutation. SRY10931b then branched R1a* from R1, and P25 distinguished R1b from R*. It is my speculation that the R1a lineage that later spread east to west was located north of Mongolia, perhaps in the Biakal basin.

          An early second millenium BCE expansion of R1b carying Indo-Europeans radiating from the northern pontic region took their equestrian technology into that region and introduced it to the locals. The result of that cultural fusion was the Scythian expansion. See, Mair and Mallory, _The Tarim Mummies_, and _Impact of the Environment on Human Migration in Eurasia_, Proceedings of the NATO Advanced Research Workshop, held in St. Petersburg, 15-18 November 2003. Also consider that there is a substantial R1b presence in the modern population of the Tarim basin, and there are certainly "native" R1b carriers in modern Siberia. Neither of the works I cited will directly suggest what I am suggesting, but I believe they provide enough evidence to justify the hypothesis.

          This article discusses a significant presence of R1b in parts of Armenia. Part of that R1b distribution is AMH.

          http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/We...01-Armenia.pdf

          (*)I have to say the piechart map in this article by Underhill made me scratch my head:
          http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...4_p487-494.pdf
          The level of Q in what appears to be California seems too high for modern populations, but the Level of R indicated seems way too high for pre-Columbian populations. I didn't have a chance to read the article closely.

          Originally posted by MMaddi
          I submitted my case to the Genealogy-DNA list for discussion which turned out to be very interesting. It seems that I might have an eastern origin (Turkey or the Balkans) for my R1b paternal line, which is not found very often in Europe. I am undergoing further SNP testing to find out more about where my R1b fits in with the majority of R1b. If you're interested in this discussion, look here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-12/1133898049
          I suspect many of the current models of population movements are very incomplete, and in some cases dead wrong. There are huge unanswered questions, and unaddressed factors. Some people will vociferously deny that the Black Sea flooded in a way suggested by Ryan and Pitman. I am inclined to believe the flood did take place. If it did, we can be confident there is a great wealth of archaeological evidence sitting a few hundred feed below sealevel. And that doesn't even address the global rise in sealevel at the end of the iceage. It seems reasonable that most of the places people took refuge durring the iceage are not part of an ocean or sea.

          Originally posted by MMaddi
          There is a new project set up here at Family Tree DNA for R1b, which already has over 60 members. There is a very useful link on the R1b project page which will send you to a page with a color-coded analysis of the 60+ members of the project. The color code shows who is off the modal value for each of the 37 markers: light blue is 1 below the modal value, medium blue is 2 below and dark blue is 3 or more below; light red is 1 above the modal value, etc. If you look there, you'll see that there are several who are 10 or more markers off the modal value. That page is http://www.clary.org/jason/FTDNAColo...spx?kits=D6353

          I would recommend that you get a SNP test and confirm that you're R1b, which you probably are, and then go from there - join the R1b project here.
          If I thought I would get a DNA resolution consistent with the latest subclade models, I might consider it. It's kind of expensive to do just for the sake of confirming what I already assume to be true. I thought getting my 12 marker test was going to show me which lineage of my surname I would fall into, and that would allow me to piggyback on their results. No such luck. I am a lineage unto my own. Not only do I not match the othere people bearing my surname, I don't match anybody beyond 32/37 markers!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hetware
            <message clipped>
            I thought getting my 12 marker test was going to show me which lineage of my surname I would fall into, and that would allow me to piggyback on their results. No such luck. I am a lineage unto my own. Not only do I not match the othere people bearing my surname, I don't match anybody beyond 32/37 markers!
            Don't let impatience get the best part of you, Hetware.
            You came and found no matches but in time others will come and find you!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hetware
              If I thought I would get a DNA resolution consistent with the latest subclade models, I might consider it. It's kind of expensive to do just for the sake of confirming what I already assume to be true. I thought getting my 12 marker test was going to show me which lineage of my surname I would fall into, and that would allow me to piggyback on their results. No such luck. I am a lineage unto my own. Not only do I not match the othere people bearing my surname, I don't match anybody beyond 32/37 markers!
              Check your personal messages. Earlier today I sent you a personal message about a SNP testing option that will give you the best available information on what your R1b subclade is.

              But I'm not sure what you're looking for. If you want to match with someone with whom you share a common ancestor, Victor's advice is correct. You have your 37 marker results - now you have to wait until someone who matches you shows up in the database. You do seem to have an interest in population genetics and deep ancestry questions, which does not relate to finding someone with a common ancestor in recent ancestry. So, if you are interested in both your recent and deep ancestry, get the SNP test I mention in my personal message to you.

              Mike

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hetware
                This is a list of allele frequencies that supposidly represent an R1b modal haplotype.

                13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11
                11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 38 12 12

                My 37 marker results differ from those numbers by 9 markers. All of the variations are limited to plus or minus 1. That convinces me that I'm in the right ballpark with R1b, but 9 markers seems like a lot. Is that an unusually high deviation within a haplogroup?

                I see there are some subclades to R1b, by FTDNA doesn't appear to test for most of these. Is that correct?

                Can I use my STR test results to resolve the R1b subclade with reasonable confidence? I haven't found much in the way of good information on this.
                There is a real good R1b chart at
                http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/Haplogroup%20R1b.pdf

                Comment


                • #9
                  YCC62, YCC64, YCC71, YCC26, etc.

                  Are there any good sources which provide the details related to the various R1b subclades (if that's the correct term) such as YCC62, YCC64, YCC71, YCC26, etc.? I am especially interested in any modal haplotype list of STR allele frequencies related to these haplogroups. And also interested in the geographical significance.

                  The following is (supposed to be) a table containing the relevant numbers from my results, as well as some sample numbers (not modals) I found on the Internet. The person who posted them claimed they were selected from samples known to belong to the indicated haplogroup. My speculation is that I might fall between the ycc64 and ycc71. Is that a reasonable proposal?

                  I would not be surprised to learn that there are close matches near the Pyrenees. Galacia, Portugal, Gasgone, etc. It's easy to come up with a few scenarios that would put an eastern Germanic in those parts about 1500 kbp. There certainly are a number of Portugese and Spaniards on the 12 marker matches; exact, as well as one- and two-step mutations. There are also Every other conceivable nationality in the union of those results. The 25 marker results appear to eliminate the Portugese.

                  That however may be offset by the only exact match with a man who speculatively places his heritage in Portugal. That is "family tradition". Of the 13 one-step mutation matches on 25 markers, there 5 match from the British Isles, and the remaining 8 are "unknown origin". The two-step mutation matches for 25 markers number 123, and are fairly evenly distributed statistically (whatever that means with such a miescule sample) at .5 to 1% of populations of the Brithish Isles, Sweden, Spain, France, Germany and Holland, with 58 listed as "unknown origin".
                  Rather than trying to describe the 3-step mutation matches, I just show them, and point out that France, Holland, Switzerland and wales seem to be the strongest matches.

                  British Isles ( 209) - 4
                  England (4348) - 69
                  France ( 271) - 9
                  Germany (1062) - 15
                  Great Britain ( 221) - 7
                  Ireland (1916) - 24
                  Netherlands ( 117) - 9
                  Scotland (1829) - 37
                  Spain ( 165) - 1
                  Switzerland ( 142) - 5
                  United Kingdom ( 889) - 19
                  Unknown Origin - 209
                  Wales ( 281) - 7
                  That might suggest "Celtic", but There were several Germanic incursions into those regions. Particularly of Suebii, which is my guess for my ancestor. As a mater of fact, the Suebii, led by Ariovistus, controled much of Gaul untils Caesar turned on them.

                  People who bore my family name from 700 to 1100 were said to be of Swabian (Suebii) extraction. The first person I know of to bear the name lived in the early 8th century in Aquitain. They are treated as Franks in discussions of Frankish history, but are consistently said to be Swabian.

                  The Suebii were really a confederation of related nations, rather than a single political entity. According to Tacitus they formed something of the backbone of Germania, both politically, and demographically. Their domain was huge.

                  My speculation is that my ancestor entered England in 1066 after the politics of Germany turned against him.

                  I can place my ancestor in Antrim Ireland around 1720, which predates any of the other papertrails I am aware of for my surname among those who have been tested. He had intended to relocate to America with his wife, who was, by the way, a very influential and respected quaker minister. There are actually a couple books that describe her life.

                  After he died, she and her younger children did move to America where she preached that a time would soon come that would destroy the sandy foundations of the current order.

                  HTML Code:
                  <html>
                    <head>
                      <title>YCC64, 71 and 26</title>
                      <style type="text/css">
                        tr.sth {background-color:#dddddd}
                        td.s {color:#ff0000}
                      </style>
                    </head>
                    <body>
                      <table>
                        <tbody>
                  	<tr class="sth">
                  	  <td>Haplogroup</td><td>Sample</td><td>&nbsp;</td>
                  	  <td>385a</td>
                  	  <td>385b</td>
                  	  <td>391</td>
                  	  <td>389I</td>
                  	  <td>437</td>
                  	  <td>394</td>
                  	  <td>389II</td>
                  	  <td>438</td>
                  	  <td>426</td>
                  	  <td>393</td>
                  	  <td>YCAIIa</td>
                  	  <td>YCAIIb</td>
                  	  <td>390</td>
                  	  <td>460</td>
                  	  <td>H4</td>
                  	  <td>388</td>
                  	  <td>439</td>
                  	  <td>392</td>
                  	  <td>447</td>
                  	  <td>448</td> 
                  	</tr>
                  	<tr> 
                  	  <td>R1b</td><td>STH</td><td>Hetware</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td>14</td>
                  	  <td>29</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	  <td>23</td>
                  	  <td>24</td>
                  	  <td>10</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>25</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	</tr>
                  	<tr>
                  	  <td>R1b</td><td>ycc26</td><td>26 UK/English English R1b* R-P25*</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td class="s">14</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td>14</td>
                  	  <td>29</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	  <td class="s">22</td>
                  	  <td class="s">23</td>
                  	  <td class="s">11</td>
                  	  <td class="s">12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td class="s">11</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td class="s">24</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	</tr>
                  	<tr>
                  	  <td>R1b</td><td>ycc62</td><td>62 Germany/German German R1b* R-P25*</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">14</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td>14</td>
                  	  <td>29</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	  <td>23</td>
                  	  <td class="s">23</td>
                  	  <td class="s">11</td>
                  	  <td class="s">12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>25</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	</tr>
                  
                  	<tr>
                  	  <td>R1b</td><td>ycc64</td><td>64 Germany/German German R1b* R-P25*</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">14</td>
                  	  <td>14</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">28</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	  <td>23</td>
                  	  <td>24</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">11</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>25</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">20</td>
                  	</tr>
                  	<tr>
                  	  <td>R1b</td><td>ycc71</td><td>71 Russia/Russian Russian R1b* R-P25*</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">12</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">10</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>15</td>
                  	  <td>14</td>
                  	  <td>29</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">13</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	  <td>23</td>
                  	  <td>24</td>
                  	  <td>10</td>
                  	  <td>11</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>12</td>
                  	  <td>13</td>
                  	  <td  class="s">26</td>
                  	  <td>19</td>
                  	</tr>
                      </tbody>
                  </table>
                  </body>
                  </html>
                  The faimily shield indicates a German affiliation as well.

                  PS: The @#$% table isn't working! Sorry, I'll have to come up with an alternative

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Swabian - Sicilians

                    My wife is U5a1a Haplogroup member and I am a R1b Haplogroup member. We are both Sicilians.

                    Is it possible that we are both of The Swabian culture?

                    http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art174.htm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Very useful link

                      Originally posted by johnraciti
                      My wife is U5a1a Haplogroup member and I am a R1b Haplogroup member. We are both Sicilians.

                      Is it possible that we are both of The Swabian culture?

                      http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art174.htm
                      John,

                      Thanks for that very useful link you provided. I am familiar with the Best of Sicily website, which has some very good history pages on Sicily. I used your link today in a posting I did on the Genealogy-DNA e-mail list, at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-02/1139076879

                      This posting was a reply to someone on the list who had theorized that what is known as "Frisian R1b" (originating in Friesland, the Netherlands) should more properly be called Suebian, after the ancient German tribe from the area that corresponds to present-day Swabia (southwestern Germany, including part of Bavaria).

                      It sounded like a plausible theory, so I looked into both the historical and genetic genealogical aspect of it. I used myself and another Sicily Project member who are R1b and 23/11 for the 390/391 markers (his criteria) to test it out. It looks from my population genetics novice viewpoint that his theory has a lot of merit.

                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        PS to previous post

                        John,

                        In case you're wondering, you were not the other Sicily Project member whom I used to test out the "Swabian R1b" theory I discussed in my previous posting. You have 24/11 values for 390/391. According to this "Swabian R1b" theory, the values should be 23/11, not the modal 24/11 R1b values.

                        Therefore, according to this (unproved) "Swabian R1b" theory, you don't fit.

                        Mike

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MMaddi
                          John,

                          In case you're wondering, you were not the other Sicily Project member whom I used to test out the "Swabian R1b" theory I discussed in my previous posting. You have 24/11 values for 390/391. According to this "Swabian R1b" theory, the values should be 23/11, not the modal 24/11 R1b values.

                          Therefore, according to this (unproved) "Swabian R1b" theory, you don't fit.

                          Mike
                          My reason for suspecting Suebi for my ancestry originated with the fact that all the men I know of who were members of a family using my surname in medieval times were said to be Swabian. Ironically, when I change my numbers to 23/11 I get just the opposite result that is claimed for the "North Sea" haplotype. That is, it shows up more frequently in British Celts and less frequently in more "Germanic" populations.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X