Are some R1b closer to I than others?

[Hetware]

I was looking at some lists that were intended to help predict haplogroups from STR results. I noticed that the markers that did not match the modal R1b all seemed to match the I haplogroup. Does that suggest my Y-Chromosome might be on a brach between I and R1b?

[Irubak]

I'm I(M170) and I have 8/12 match with R1a guy from Austria. Plus the predictor puts gives me higher probability to be J than I. So, I'm quite confused.

[Hetware]

After I looked at more and better data, I can't really say there is much, if any bias toward I regarding the deviations from the R1b.

[T E Peterman]

The allele values for each DYS loci vary at random. There would presumably be a small percentage of any subclade (R1b, for example) that would vary to look a bit more like I. But this is only convergence. All R1bs are equally distant in their patrilineal kinship to all other subclades (eg, I).

The y-str is good at determining the likelihood of kinship in the last few hundred years. But it takes SNPs to actually map out the "forks in the family tree".

Timothy Peterman

[Hetware]

The allele values for each DYS loci vary at random. There would presumably be a small percentage of any subclade (R1b, for example) that would vary to look a bit more like I. But this is only convergence. All R1bs are equally distant in their patrilineal kinship to all other subclades (eg, I).

The y-str is good at determining the likelihood of kinship in the last few hundred years. But it takes SNPs to actually map out the "forks in the family tree".

Timothy Peterman

If I understand how this works(big IF), the so-called modal haplotypes are a statistical norm of currently observed members of a haplogroup, So it doesn't really represent the founder of that lineage directly, but is more of a guess based on current data. Is that correct?

[T E Peterman]

Since more people fall near the modal values, there is a tendency to assume that the modal values are closer to the original; the odds of the majority mutating in the same direction are less than the majority remaining the same. A small minority could shift toward the modal values of another haplotype.

But like I said before, use SNPs to concluseively determine the descending forks in humanity's patrilineal tree.

Timothy Peterman

[Hetware]

Since more people fall near the modal values, there is a tendency to assume that the modal values are closer to the original; the odds of the majority mutating in the same direction are less than the majority remaining the same. A small minority could shift toward the modal values of another haplotype.

But like I said before, use SNPs to concluseively determine the descending forks in humanity's patrilineal tree.

Timothy Peterman

I'm not sure you are getting my point. Say for example there was an SNP mutation that identified a certain man's descendents. One of his descendents migrated to an isolated region and produced a relatively small population. Another one migrated to a different region and produced a huge population. It just so happens the latter also had some STR mutations that moved him further from the original branch. The modal for the entire population would be closer to the larger population despite the fact that the smaller population has less genetic distance from the original founder.