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Originally posted by chekwriter
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Which Mills group's haplogroup prediction was changed from J to I? The 520 group, or another one? Athey's predictor gives the 520 group scores of I1a=95, J=51, G=40. -
Iranian J diffused at 10kybp..........
to give j2-m172 Turks and j2-410 NW Iranians/Southern Caucaus people(These by the way, are the IE peoples). There was enough heterogenity in the iranian population to lead to the diffusion of many seperate alleles. J2-m410 and m172 likely had it's iranian roots and drifted upwards in smaller populations later on. In contrast, it looks like J1's 267 "ARAB" variant formed AFTER J bearing iranians created founders in the south of the middle east.
The Avesta provides unarguable evidence that j2-m410 is the Aryan marker. Zorostar clearly mentions (Not Poetically, or metaphorically)that the Aryan Homeland contained a fast flowing river called the aras (which is located on the border of iran and azerbijan), a mountain, a sea, very cold weather, and bordered a land called azerbijan. Most people don't know what the avesta is, so this truth goes unnoticed. Anyways, this is the expansion of the original IE peoples some 4000-6000 years ago:
M172 is often wrongly confused with the IE peoples. Don't get me wrong, it is very close to IEs, and it is understandable why such confusion exists, but it more so represents barely-proto-IE peoples. J2-m410 is the more consistent with textual evidence. In any case, J2-m172's were/are highly caucasiod peoples, as 410s, and of course, 12f2 (The major haplogroup J) were/are.Comment
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J2 origins
"Some scholars identify northern Iran as the focal area from which J2 dispersed. The high diversity of J2 in Turkish and southern European people possibly suggests an Aegean rather than Middle Eastern primary derivation."
j2-m410 likely originated in NW Iran/Azerbijan/Armenia region, independently.
You have to look at the clades of J2. m172 originated in turkey after j bearing iranians moved there. However, m172 is should not be associated directly with IEs. Additionally, It is highly assumptious to think it gave rise to J2-m410. Were basically saying IE's Moved East?!, there is no cultural influence moving eastward. Populations were moving west like crazy). High iranian heterogenity may imply that iranians already had j2-m410 and 172.Comment
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J2 Haplotype #21
J2 Haplotype #21
The haplotype below exhibits its highest match frequency among the Cumanians, a minority in Hungary of ancient Turkic extraction. It is also found in Northern Italy and Germany. It may have been introduced to Western Europe by the great migrations from Central Asia in the first millennium C.E. - and could have been brought to Britain with Roman conscripts.
19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
15 12 28 24 10 11 12 15 17
(my haplo 15 12 28 24 10 11 12 15 17)
Geographical Locale %
Fulopszallas, Hungary [Small Cumanians] 4.55
Lombardy, Italy .55
Freiburg, Germany .23
Chemnitz, Germany .1Comment
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Hey!Originally posted by rsychev
Awesome!
I hope you get lots of members there.
I will pop in and ask some questions. I've got a lot to learn about J2.
Super!
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New to the forum
I uploaded my data from the Genographic Project. Shows me as J2 (M172). The map is rather bizarre though. The M172 lines show going from Iraq to Syria to Turkey to southern Europe (Greece/Italy). ANother line shows across North Africa!
However, my Zoroastrian ancestors were from Iran. They fled to India about 13 centuries ago when the Arabs invaded the Persian empire and destroyed it. (The group that fled several years after the invasion did not want to convert to Islam at the point of a sword).
How does one explain that the M-172 line does not go towards Iran?Comment
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First, the map is very approximate. A starting point of Iraq is just an approximation for the surrounding region, including Iran.Originally posted by OneAkela
Second, the map shows major prehistorical movements of peoples. It is not meant to substitute for a history textbook, which would describe historically recorded migrations.
Third, the map only shows large migrations. Smaller ones would complicate and "clutter" the map.Comment
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The map is not completely accurate, but to NG's credit they have revised it with new information. There was very significant J2 migration to Iran and western India.Comment
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I have to say that it seems to me to be 100% counter-intuitive to claim appearance has nothing to do with haplotype. Of course it does! Just because we have no Y-Dna, does not mean women don't inherit physical traits from their fathers. I look very similiar to my father a J2 - dark hair, dark eyes,short. Typical of J2. You may find an Italian or Persian who is blonde and blue eyed but that would be rare. And believe me, I know. I live in an area of Los Angeles near Beverly Hills that's known as Therangeles and there is NEVER a blonde in sight! I used to live in an area of the midwest that was very scandinavian -- tall blondes everywhere and I never felt like I fit in, so just goes to show...
btw, my maternal side/my mtdna is J1b1! How strange is that!? It's very similar to the paternal J2 side but different. My understanding is that J2 is more Southern Europe whereas my mtnda is more Near East migrating to Western Europe which fits in with some of our Irish ancestry.Last edited by caj2; 6 September 2006, 02:57 PM.Comment
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Not true at all, you've made the wrong example.Originally posted by caj2
The average Italian isn't more similar in appearance to an Iranian than he is to any other European: I've seen many Italians with blond hair and/or blue eyes (my brother is one of those); on the contrary, I've never seen an Italian who looks like an Asian, as many Iranians do.Comment
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caj:
funny that your parents are J & J. The mtdna and ydna label have no relation to each other, but still... It would be interesting to know what your father's mtdna is. J as well?
As for Y dna J2, it is not true that it is mostly Southern European. J2 is typical Middle Eastern. I believe (but I need to check the papers) that J2 is the most common haplogroup in Iraq and Lebanon, and possibly Iran as well. It was certainly born in the Middle East, and then, during the neolithic period, moved to Southern Europe. Probably the same is true for mtdna J, but as usual, mtdna haplogroups are more spread out and less concentrated.
cacioComment
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Ydna and Mtdna have nothing to do with appearance. The genes influencing appearance are located on the autosomes. However there seems to be some correlation between autosomal tests results and Ydna and Mtdna results.
By the way, I am also a Ydna J2 and an Mtdna J1.Comment
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weird! me2.
Well I guess it's just the non-scientist in me rearing up again... autosomes, the more I learn the less I know.
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OneAkela:
regarding the Parsi, the following article lists the Y-chromosome composition of a sample of 90 Parsi from Karachi:
As you suggested, the article finds that overall the Parsis resemble more the genetic composition of the Iranians rather than the Pakistanis. The main haplogroups among the Parsi are: J 39%, RxR1a 27%, L 17.5% (a good number of my own L as well. If you look at the article, note that the haplogroups are denoted with different names. J is 9.). The online version of the article lists their STRs, so you can compare yourself to the Parsi sample and see if you share a common sequence.
cacioComment
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