J2 Discussion

[rsychev]

Hello,

Russia,Italy,Ireland...it's all music,romance and passion.I see no difference!

Nas

Yeah, it's music

[F.E.C.]

Abundant black body hair is a very obvious phenotypical feature, particularly in high school gym class and its consequent shower. It is not respect but silliness to pretend that it doesn't exist or that no one notices it. Once again, the many Italian-Americans in my neighborhood were very proud of their early need to shave and their early chest 'fur'.

I'm not surprised that you didn't get the point Igmayka.

What bothers me is not the comparison with Persians itself or the urban legend about hairs on the back. It's not I don't like the impression given by Southern Italian, on the contrary: I think they should be offended too by someone who's saying they all look the same way.

As a matter of fact, the thing that I really find annoying is that someone like you can oversimplisticly think all Italians look in a certain manner because a minority of them look that way.

Italian Northern border is in Lombardy, not in Calabria, Igmayka.

I have got hairs on my chest and arms (not on my back sorry), still nobody would think I'm from Iran. The same goes for other "furry Italian animals" I see everyday. Hairs don't mean that much when you've got light hair and complexion.

Put simply, there is no reason not to be content with the way we, and/or our ethnic groups, look. If we happen to look different from what is most common for our group, that's fine too. But neither should we pretend that everyone looks the same, or that looks are totally random, etc.

Ehy you're changing the cards on the table, Igmayka.
It's you pretending Italians all look the same.

Within Italy (the whole Italy) only some of the population has Mediterranean features and even those who look Mediterranean don't look Iranian in most cases. I could find hundreds of pictures portraying clearly non-ME-looking Italians; you surely couldn't do the same for Lebanese, Iraqis or Persians

By the way, I'm not here to convince anyone, believe what you want. I can't change such a long-living stereotype.
Probably in Hollywood they know what Italians look like better than me

[lgmayka]

As a matter of fact, the thing that I really find annoying is that someone like you can oversimplisticly think all Italians look in a certain manner because a minority of them look that way.

Italian Northern border is in Lombardy, not in Calabria, Igmayka.

I have got hairs on my chest and arms (not on my back sorry), still nobody would think I'm from Iran. The same goes for other "furry Italian animals" I see everyday. Hairs don't mean that much when you've got light hair and complexion.
...
Within Italy (the whole Italy) only some of the population has Mediterranean features and even those who look Mediterranean don't look Iranian in most cases. I could find hundreds of pictures portraying clearly non-ME-looking Italians; you surely couldn't do the same for Lebanese, Iraqis or Persians.

You missed the point. You are treating Iranians exactly as you do not want to be treated yourself. The truth is that Iranians also have varied phenotypes, though one might not get that impression from our Western media. Do you know that red hair is common in Iran?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

---
Red hair can be found today from North India, Iran and Pakistan, where it can be found most commonly amongst those of Iranian descent, such as the Pashtuns, all the way to Japan.
---

You are also missing the point that we all make mental pictures based on perceived 'averages'. I don't know what the 'average' phenotype across all of Italy is, nor was that the point; I know very well, though, that the most common phenotype of Italian-Americans is to have a lot of black body hair. (I agree that it might have to do with the fact that the majority of Italian-Americans seem to be from southern Italy.) And I'm sorry, body hair (or its lack) means a lot in swimming and the shower; it's what everyone is staring at, not one's facial complexion.

Obviously, my view is based on my experiences in a public high school with an all-boy's gym class and a ban on swimsuits (we had to swim naked). The difference between the hairless and the hairy is extremely obvious, and to a great extent separates the boys into two very different groups.

Your experiences may differ.

[F.E.C.]

Do you know that red hair is common in Iran?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

---
Red hair can be found today from North India, Iran and Pakistan, where it can be found most commonly amongst those of Iranian descent, such as the Pashtuns, all the way to Japan.
---

I know and I also know people with red and blond hair are way more usual in Italy, Greece, Spain and in any other European Mediterranean country than they are in Iran, Pakistan or whatever.

[MMaddi]

If you really feel the need to have a major debate about southern Italians and hairiness, use me as your guinea pig (oops, no pun intended). My paternal line (R1b1c9*) is from Sicily, at least back to 1845. My maternal line (T5) is from southern Italy (Puglia), at least back to 1842. All lines are from either Sicily or southern Italy, in some cases documented back to the early 1700s.

I did grow a mustache in my senior year in high school or freshman year in college, so I was definitely shaving in high school. My arm hair is moderate, chest hair is light. I asked my girlfriend about my back hair and she said there is none. My hair is brown and I have hazel eyes. Both my father and paternal grandfather had gray eyes, very unusual.

Now you can add my characteristics into your debate!

Mike

[Johnserrat]

We must not forget that Italy was the beneficiary of repeated invasions by germanic people over the past 2,000 years. The Lombards, Goths and Vandals (by way of Africa) all invaded and settled in what is now Italy. It is not at all surprising that you would find red hair, blond hair, and light coloured eyes among Italy's citizens today.

John

[ragnar]

---


" Obviously, my view is based on my experiences in a public high school with an all-boy's gym class and a ban on swimsuits (we had to swim naked). "
lgmayka - Where the heck did you go to school ? I never heard of such a thing. If that happened nowadays, the hew & cry would be that there was a pedophile running the class (or school) !

[F.E.C.]

You are right John, that surely explains for a great part the origin of blonds/redheads in Italy, altogether with the Gaulish presence in the North.

On the other hand, even before the Lombards and the Goths there were people of 100% Italic lineage with these traits: e.g. ancient authors tell Cato the Elder had red hair and Suetonius describes the emperor Augustus with blue eyes and blond curly hair.

By the way, I don't think this is very accurate but you might find it interesting:http://racialreality.blogspot.com/20...variation.html

[lgmayka]

lgmayka - Where the heck did you go to school ?

The practice was common in the Chicago metropolitan area--and, I am told, the Milwaukee area--until a court decision in the late 1970s forced co-educational gym classes.

[Johnserrat]

Around the Mediteranean, blond and red hair must have been relatively common in prehistory. For example, famous blondes include: Alexander the Great, Odysseus, Helen of Troy and Dionysius of Syracuse. Examples of famous red heads include: King David of Israel and Achilles, who is said to have had reddish-blond hair.

Igmayka, your account of boyhood swimming lessons has had me in stitches. You must have grown up in a very spartan environment. (all pun intended)

John

[Stevo]

I am R1b1c of, as far as I know, all Northern European extraction, and I have a pretty good amount of body hair. I'm not one of those super-hairy, apelike, throwback guys, but I do have a hairy chest, some back hair, and a fair amount of hair on my forearms. It's not the black, curly stuff, more a kind of medium brown, with some red and blond here and there.

I have a friend whose immigrant ancestor was a fairly recent arrival from Germany. Without a shirt on, this friend of mine looks like some rare species of blond ape. If one looks up hirsute in the dictionary, my friend's photo will be there or should be there.

[F.E.C.]

I have a friend whose immigrant ancestor was a fairly recent arrival from Germany. Without a shirt on, this friend of mine looks like some rare species of blond ape. If one looks up hirsute in the dictionary, my friend's photo will be there or should be there.

That's exactly what I meant when I said IMHO hairs don't mean that much as a criterion to predict someone's origins.

I have got a good amount of hairs, not too many though, and all in their proper places. Still, my light brown hair, hazel eyes, altogether with my complexion, wouldn't make you think of the typical Mediterranean, let alone Middle Eastern guy.

[Stevo]

I always figured hairiness had something to do with adaptation to the cold, but I guess if that were the case, women from cold climates would be as hairy as the men.

Yuck!

[Johnserrat]

I think it may actually be the reverse. After our ancestors started wearing clothes, body hair became a liability. Unfortunately, our ancestors did not bathe very often and lice, ticks, and other vermin would infest the hairy parts of the body where they would not easily be seen. In the cold north, people would have worn more clothes and have been more susceptible to infestation. As a result, it would make sense that having less body hair improved one's chances for survival. As a person who will probably never be able to grow a mustache nor have any need for shaving cream, it is pretty clear that my ancestors passed down this advantage to me.

John

[Stevo]

I think it may actually be the reverse. After our ancestors started wearing clothes, body hair became a liability. Unfortunately, our ancestors did not bathe very often and lice, ticks, and other vermin would infest the hairy parts of the body where they would not easily be seen. In the cold north, people would have worn more clothes and have been more susceptible to infestation. As a result, it would make sense that having less body hair improved one's chances for survival. As a person who will probably never be able to grow a mustache nor have any need for shaving cream, it is pretty clear that my ancestors passed down this advantage to me.

John

I'm not sure about that. It seems to me most persons from warmer climes have less body hair than those from colder climes.

There may be exceptions to that, but that is my personal observation anyway.

Besides, lice and other vermin will infest the naked as readily as they will the clothed, and even those without much excess body hair still have enough head and pubic hair to provide them a home.

Not having lice is, of course, much more comfortable than having them, but since when do lice threaten anyone's survival so that having less body hair would be a survival advantage?