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  • #91
    J2a-m410 represents the Aryan tribes (In Persia, the Persian's and Medes) dropping from North West Iran deep into the Iranian plateau. In India, these Aryans created a caste system to seperate themselves from the black-skinned Dravidian. The fact that m410 is only found in Upper-Caste Hindu's is consistent with this.


    Distribution of M410
    http://www.geocities.com/zadeh1979/fg3.jpg


    It is in all certainty that the areas of high m410 concentration mark the location of the legendary 'Aryan Homeland' as Zoroaster described it. What really gives it away is that Zoroaster often mentions the Araxes river, which borders Iran and Azerbiajan, as part of the homeland.

    There is some evidence to suggest, however, that the expansion of the major Haplogroup J around the same region ,about 5000 years before Zoroaster, marks the inital dispersion of the Aryan peoples (Maybe Zoroaster was not describing his birthplace as the Aryan homeland, but rather describing a location that was born from myths originating thousands of years before him, which, only coincidentally, happened to be the land of his birth as well.). This scenario is only plausible after reading Zoroaster's description of a flood on the plateau:

    ".......In the second phase of the creation of the world, Ahura Mazda created the waters, and the waters flowed towards Farakhekrat Sea which covers one third of the world from the southern outskirts of Alborz"

    Obviously, Zoroaster was describing the flood that caused the evacuation of J bearing Iranians long before him, an event he could not have physically witnessed himself. The melting of the ice from the surrounding mountains of the Alborz and Zagros at the end of the last ice age, created a large lake where the central desert exists today (In fact, this lake had still existed just 2000 years ago). It forced many of inhabitants of the plateau to migrate from their homeland. Critics of this analysis would say that Europeans don't carry HG J, so J could not have been IE. This notion overlooks the fact that autosomal comparisons strongly suggest that many specific mutations have been passed on from Iranian peoples into Europe, India, and the Middle East.
    Last edited by jpz79; 7 September 2006, 05:04 PM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by jpz70
      J2a-m410 represents the Aryan tribes (In Persia, the Persian's and Medes) dropping from North West Iran deep into the Iranian plateau.
      Balderdash. That is simply an assertion without any real support.

      You want to believe it, but there is no real evidence that is true.

      Zoroaster didn't know anything about y-dna and said nothing about it.

      J2 in Iran probably represents a Semitic element or perhaps the original native Elamites.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by jpz79
        This notion overlooks the fact that autosomal comparisons strongly suggest that many specific mutations have been passed on from Iranian peoples into Europe, India, and the Middle East.
        No reputable paper mentions the 'Iranian peoples' in that way. Some research papers claim that Europeans contain a significant 'Middle Eastern' component in their autosomal DNA, but the papers deliberately keep this very vague, and possibly even unintentionally include the Balkans as part of the 'Middle East'.

        And some research papers may speculate on the DNA impact of the spread of Indo-European, but I don't know of any serious scholarly paper that locates the Proto-Indo-Europeans in Iran. I've seen locations from modern-day Romania, to Ukraine, to the Caucasus, and even modern-day Turkey, but not Iran.

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        • #94
          Why the all J2's and subgroups compare like a Jewish?
          After all M102 mutation have a clear Mediterranean trace and especially south Balkan trace. Jewish haplo to a greater extent it is J and J1's and it is totally other haplotype, anyway, it very different.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by rsychev
            Why the all J2's and subgroups compare like a Jewish?
            After all M102 mutation have a clear Mediterranean trace and especially south Balkan trace. Jewish haplo to a greater extent it is J and J1's and it is totally other haplotype, anyway, it very different.
            There are a lot of Jewish men who are J2, but I don't think anyone here is saying all J2s are Jewish or the descendants of Jewish people. Most of them are not.

            We are just saying that jpz79 is wrong in some of his claims about the Proto-Indo-Europeans.
            Last edited by Stevo; 8 September 2006, 11:32 AM.

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            • #96
              I'm hoping it's Jewish because that would be great and explain a lot. or possibly Greek or southern Europe, I don't really feel it's middle-eastern/Persian but I could be wrong. Btw, I live among many, many Persians here and NONE of them look Asian. LOL. (Not even close.)

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              • #97
                Originally posted by caj2
                I'm hoping it's Jewish because that would be great and explain a lot. or possibly Greek or southern Europe, I don't really feel it's middle-eastern/Persian but I could be wrong. Btw, I live among many, many Persians here and NONE of them look Asian. LOL. (Not even close.)
                Sure they don't look like Italians

                Are Iranians emigrating to the US different than those emigrating to Italy? Wow every day I learn something new...

                By saying Asian I mean Middle Eastern looking (as fa as I know Middle East is Asia but maybe I'm wrong )
                Last edited by F.E.C.; 12 September 2006, 05:52 AM.

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                • #98
                  Don't say that J2 it is italians... don't! F.E.C. don't like it. In Italy don't have haplogroup J2... we are all the Caucasians... and please don't touch ancient Rome and Greece.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by rsychev
                    Don't say that J2 it is italians... don't! F.E.C. don't like it. In Italy don't have haplogroup J2... we are all the Caucasians... and please don't touch ancient Rome and Greece.
                    I'm sorry you think that about me, Roman. This has nothing to do with J2 in Italy.

                    I was just replying to a post by caj2, in which she erroneously said it's very difficult to find Italians with certain phenotypical characters and where she makes a rough association comparing Italians and Persians.
                    As a matter of fact, few people in few parts of Italy show Middle Eastern features: it was as if I said that Italians look like the Irish only because a small part of them has got red hair...

                    In few other parts of the world I've seen the same variety of physical traits within such a culturally homogeneous nation. Saying otherwise would be a crude generalization.

                    I also remind caj2 and you that haplogroups have almost nothing to do with physical appearance.
                    Last edited by F.E.C.; 12 September 2006, 12:01 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by caj2
                      I'm hoping it's Jewish because that would be great and explain a lot. or possibly Greek or southern Europe, I don't really feel it's middle-eastern/Persian but I could be wrong. Btw, I live among many, many Persians here and NONE of them look Asian. LOL. (Not even close.)
                      Your haplotype at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....haplo_j_j2.htm is one marker off (DYS 389i) from J2 Haplotype #13, which is described as:

                      "Of the top ten Old World frequencies for this haplotype, eight fall among populations of largely Mediterranean origin - Greeks, Jews, Tunisians, Egyptians, Armenians, Turks and Italians. Two other high frequency matches -in the Netherlands and Belgium - most likely reflect the spread of itinerant mercantile peoples, such as the Armenians or the Sephardic Jews, to the Low Countries of Europe. This haplotype could easily have come to the Borders with Roman troops, but could also have arrived with Flemish merchants involved in the wool trade, like those who settled in Berwick about 500 years ago."

                      I think it is pretty in accordance with your one step matches.

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                      • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                        As a matter of fact, few people in few parts of Italy show Middle Eastern features...
                        This is getting slightly ridiculous. In case you don't realize, Europeans north of the Mediterranean do see plenty of similarities among Mediterranean peoples (including both Italians and Middle Easterners), and differences between the Mediterraneans and themselves. The most obvious difference is clear to any American boy who has taken high school gym class: Mediterranean boys and men have much more, and darker, body hair--on the average, of course.

                        Indeed, in my neighborhood, Italian-American teenage boys were quite proud of both their early need to shave and their early chest 'fur'. In contrast, I never did grow any chest hair (I am now 46 years old) and I didn't have to shave until I was 21. (And then I didn't have to shave again until I was 25!)

                        I have an Italian-American friend who has an uncharacteristically (for Italians) pale face; but he mentioned to me that his wife wanted him to shave his back. In other words, he has obviously visible back hair. That's more than I wanted to know about him, but it certainly demonstrates his Italian ancestry, despite his 'fair' countenance.

                        I'm sure there are exceptions, particularly in northern Italy, but then there are similar exceptions in northern Iran also. Many northern Iranians appear similar to the peoples of the north Caucasus: pale countenance, auburn or light brown hair, etc.
                        Last edited by lgmayka; 12 September 2006, 02:59 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by lgmayka
                          This is getting slightly ridiculous. In case you don't realize, Europeans north of the Mediterranean do see plenty of similarities among Mediterranean peoples (including both Italians and Middle Easterners), and differences between the Mediterraneans and themselves. The most obvious difference is clear to any American boy who has taken high school gym class: Mediterranean boys and men have much more, and darker, body hair--on the average, of course.

                          Indeed, in my neighborhood, Italian-American teenage boys were quite proud of both their early need to shave and their early chest 'fur'. In contrast, I never did grow any chest hair (I am now 46 years old) and I didn't have to shave until I was 21. (And then I didn't have to shave again until I was 25!)

                          I have an Italian-American friend who has an uncharacteristically (for Italians) pale face; but he mentioned to me that his wife wanted him to shave his back. In other words, he has obviously visible back hair. That's more than I wanted to know about him, but it certainly demonstrates his Italian ancestry, despite his 'fair' countenance.
                          I'm amazed by ignorance about Italians, especially hearin that from people who thinks Italians all look like the Sopranos (not to mention a person like you, Igmayka, who wanted to make us believe that people from Southern Russia who descend from the Alans and the Sarmatians are all blond and tall )

                          Have you ever been to Italy Igmayka or do you talk only because your childhood pale Italian friend had hairs on his back?
                          I can't believe it, you want to say Italians and Middle Easterners look the same because they generally have hairs!
                          That's ridicoulous!Are you by chance implying that Cousin Itt from the Addams Family had Italian blood?

                          You know, we have a lot of cliches about the Poles and generally speaking about people from Eastern Europe in Italy but I don't pay attention to them because I've never been to Poland

                          I repeat what I've previously said: only because few Italians (in 90% of the cases from the South) look that way it doesn't mean Italians in general look that way.
                          So are you saying I'm not a true Italian only because anyone could say I don't look like a Persian? But then almost all my friends and family shouldn't be considered Italians.

                          Are respect and the right of a faithful representation something that only the Sarmatians deserve, Igmayka?
                          Last edited by F.E.C.; 12 September 2006, 03:21 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by F.E.C.
                            I can't believe it, you want to say Italians and Middle Easterners look the same because they generally have hairs!
                            ...
                            I repeat what I've previously said: only because few Italians (in 90% of the cases from the South) look that way it doesn't mean Italians in general look that way.
                            ...
                            Are respect and the right of a faithful representation something that only the Sarmatians deserve, Igmayka?
                            Abundant black body hair is a very obvious phenotypical feature, particularly in high school gym class and its consequent shower. It is not respect but silliness to pretend that it doesn't exist or that no one notices it. Once again, the many Italian-Americans in my neighborhood were very proud of their early need to shave and their early chest 'fur'.

                            And yes, abundant black body hair is precisely what many Americans most associate with 'the Mediterranean look'--even more than the supposed 'olive skin'.

                            And yes, I suspect that the majority of Italian-Americans are from southern Italy, just as the majority of Polish-Americans are probably from southern Poland. If northern Italians and northern Poles don't like the resulting impression given, they are free to immigrate to the United States themselves in order to change the mix.

                            Put simply, there is no reason not to be content with the way we, and/or our ethnic groups, look. If we happen to look different from what is most common for our group, that's fine too. But neither should we pretend that everyone looks the same, or that looks are totally random, etc.
                            Last edited by lgmayka; 12 September 2006, 06:16 PM.

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                            • Heated argument ... there is a smell of burning.

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                              • J2 Discussion

                                Originally posted by rsychev
                                Heated argument ... there is a smell of burning.
                                Hello,

                                Russia,Italy,Ireland...it's all music,romance and passion.I see no difference!

                                Nas

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