J2 Discussion

[josh w.]

There is an Iraqi study by Al-Zahery (in the Ftdna library for combined research) that includes some Assyrian subjects. However the study does not break its sample into different components. For males 33% of the sample were J1 and 25% were J2.

[la_roccia]

Catching Up

Good input by all in this discussion. I've been pretty busy lately and am trying to catch up on things DNA.

Initially I thought J2 was one of the rare haplogroups in Europe but we seem to be popping up all over the place. One surname project site I read emphatically stated that J2 was NOT a European haplogroup but it is my feeling that if a haplogroup has existed their for millenia that it's just as European as any other. Maybe the person was speaking of the supposed geographical origin of the mutation and didn't do an adequate job of articulating this.

As far as a Jewish haplotype I initially thought being J2 possibly had some connection but as many have correctly stated on many threads, being Jewish does not necessarily equate with a genetic origin. There is a very tight grouping among the Jewish since they married within the faith for a long time and this is really cool in helping one find genetic matches to complete a family tree.

Cinda good photo. You look like a kind lady. I often wonder what the original J2 mutation carrying person looked like. One would need a time machine to discover this and mine ain't working yet. I would say that the original J2 person looked like the combination of haplotypes he descended from just as we look like our own individual haplotype "gumbo" today. Isn't J-J*-J1-J2 a descendent of I? Someone help me with this concept if I'm wrong.

Our appearance and haplotype are really unconnected. This is proven within my own family. My Dad looks like a short Swede or something. Blue eyes, very fair skin, so much so that he has to be covered from head to toe in the summer when he works outdoors. When he was younger his hair was white/blonde, you know the really really blonde; I don't know the word for that. Then I have 3 red haired siblings who are freckly and fair. And one dirty blonde sibling who's average compexion then the rest of us are brown hair olive complexion. So, it's crazy how all this works out isn't it? 7 kids total by the way.

We have a few J2s in our Sicily DNA Project. I should be receiving the SNP thingy results any day now.

La Roccia

[josh w.]

I and J are both "offspring" of F. There is conflicting evidence as to whether J2 is descended from J1 or J.

[la_roccia]

J2 is from . . .

I and J are both "offspring" of F. There is conflicting evidence as to whether J2 is descended from J1 or J.

Josh, thanks for the help there. Is there any research being done to resolve this question of J2 being from J1 or J, if so can you provide some links to the studies/debates?

Thanks,

La Roccia

[dentate]

Don't see how J2 could be derived from a J1 individual since J2 does not have the mutation that defines J1 (M267). They are "sibling" haplogroups that share many STR haplotypes.

Josh is absolutely right--J2 is very, very common through the Middle East, Anatolia, the southern Caucasus, and in India. It is common in Italy and Greece and especially Crete. Jews have a lot of J2 simply because they are the descendants of an amalgam of peoples who lived in an area where J2 was common, but the spread of J2 long predates the origin of Jews, by many thousands of years. The large number of Ashkenazi Jewish matches that J2 individuals find in the FTDNA database is due to three factors: (1) a huge overrepresentation of Jewish contributors to this database--there are fewer than 70 individuals who list themselves as Iranian who have contributed, if you look at the REO and haplogroup pages!! (2) the fact that Askhkenazi Jews had a population bottleneck resulting in some decrease in the variability of the STR haplotypes--so if you match one, you will likely match many; and (3) the fact that the J subclades are notorious for the failure of STR haplotype to correlate well with SNP haplogroup, so that J2's have J1 matches and so on in the STR matching database.

I think it is highly likely that there are many J2's among the modern ethnic Assyrians. Some may be the descendants of Jewish converts but much more likely this just represents common area of origin. My ancestors were Hungarian Jews, but my STR haplotype is only one step off from the modal STR haplotype of the city of Tehran!! And last time I checked, they were not all Jewish there. I have a colleague who is from northern Iran near the Caspian. I bet him on statistical grounds that he was a J2, and I was right. So, I see nothing at all inconsistent or surprising about the J2 in Assyrians.

Also, it is erroneous to think that all "Middle Eastern" peoples are dark. There are many, many native individuals in Syria, Anatolia, Iran, and Armenia who have fair coloration. It may not be as common there as in parts of Europe, but it is certainly present and likely always has been. Whether this coloration originated there or represents immigration from elsewhere is irrelevant to this discussion: that region of the world has been a crossroads for a very long time, and the point is that this kind of coloring might mean Viking ancestry, but just as likely (if not more) represents genes that have been there since ancient times.

[Jenny Swedberg]

fair coloration

I thought also that perhaps fair coloration represented genes that had been there since very ancient times. I read the article on Y Chromosome and mtdna polymorphism in Iraq and even though I am not a scientist it seemed like the sample groups were of such small numbers. Even though it was nice to see such a high frequency of J2 m172 findings in the Zagros mountains. What i did find to be a real eye opener is the article on "Mitochondrial DNA variation and language replacement in the Caucasus" under mtdna papers. Again, it seemed like such a small sampling. Thankyou all for sharing your thoughts feelings and facts on physical appearances in relationship to haplotype. My grandfather and father had the most incredible dimples and cleft chins. I inherited the cheek dimples. My grandfather tried to explain them away by saying "they are not natural to are race" whatever he meant by that. I later came to understand that they are the result of a mutation that occured some 50,000 years ago. Whenever someone would comment on my lovely dimples i would repond "you know these dimples are probably some 50,000 years old" i don't know if i was trying to be a miss smarty pants or humorus. But all kidding aside I would love to have a time machine to see exactly how we all evolved warts and all!!! And who knows maybe one day in are life time will know.

[josh w.]

Jeff, Underhill and collaborators ( " Y chromosomal sequence variation and the history of human populations") claimed that J2 mutated out of J1 by a T to G transversion. To clarify, I didn"t mean to suggest that fair coloration must be due to recent intermarriage, merely that the source of the genes was likely located outside the Near East.

[josh w.]

P.S. Underhill's position was also cited by Nebel ("The Y chromosomal pool of Jews as part of the genetic landscape of the Middle East"). I am completely unqualified to take a postion on this issue and defer to dentate.

[Cinda]

Deep SNP results

Hi fellow J2's.
I've just received the first markers from my deep J2 SNP test.
Here are the results:

J2f
M172+ M304+ M67+ M102- M12- M137- M158- M163- M205- M267- M280- M339- M365- M367- M368- M369- M390- M47- M62- M68- M92- M99-

Would anyone like to comment on the results?
My main goal is to find out how recent our J2f is.
I didn't grow up with my father's family. I tracked down my father's brother & he graciously gave me a sample. My father is deceased.
My uncle told me he had no idea of our ancestry, but thought we were Irish.
Well, i know now, after about 3 years of testing through FTDNA, it's not "native" Irish.
We have no close matches in our surname project, so I keep waiting.
Anyone?
Thanks,
Cinda

[genny]

What is your surname? What is your Y-Search code? Some J2f are Italian.

[Cinda]

Hi Genny,
My maiden name was Mayes. But the original spelling was May.
My ysearch ID# h6ypy.
I haven't uploaded my new results as they are partial results.
How about you? Is your paternal line J2f?
Cindy

[genny]

I am the administrator of an extended family project that currently includes 7 different surnames and 5 different haplogroups. My son-in-law is in haplogroup J2f. His surname is Proce (YSearch # 3PTYK).

[Cinda]

Genny,
Wow! You have alot going on with the DNA projects.
We belong to the May surname project, and my husband is a member of the Meek surname project.
I WISH I was Italian, or SOMETHING concrete!
Right now I am waiting on answers.
We only matched one other participant in the May surname project & he knows less than we do about our ancestry.
I'm leaning towards the Roman invasion of the UK.
My paternal line history is in the south.
My father's family (bless their hearts) are all from the hills of Kentucky. They just moved over into southern Indiana recently. I was born there in Evansville in 1957. When I told my paternal uncle about the possibility of an Italian ancestor, he said "We are Irish!" He didn't get it at all. But, he might be right.
I just can't see a native born Italian moving to that area & founding our line in the US. Although stranger things have happened.
New papers on J2 expansion suggest that the Romans may have had more of an impact than ancient farmer migration.
Who know? I sure don't. Maybe a J2 trader.
I'm just waiting....
Cinda

[Judy]

Cinda, I just got back my brother's deep clade results and we are J2f also. It seems like J2f's got around. We are Ashkenazic Jews (not Cohanim, although we have the CMH) and my paternal grandfather was born in Poland in 1883. I don't know anything about his ancestors. I am also early on the learning curve, and hope to find out more through this forum thread. Did you join the J2 project on FTDNA?
Judy

[Cinda]

Hi Judy,
Poland, huh? J2f's do get around!
We are a member of the J2 project at FTDNA.
I emailed the admin yesterday with our results, but I haven't heard anything from him.
I've been testing with FTDNA for about 3 years.
I've purchased the YDNA, the mtDNA (I'm hap U5a), the hap SNP for the J2, & the J2 deep SNP. I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
And I've learned alot, but I still have LOTS of questions.
Mainly, I just wait for a good match in our surname project.
Someone with a long pedigree hopefully! LOL!
Cinda