J2 Discussion

[la_roccia]

Tired of the same old: "J2 This lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India. As with other populations with Mediterranean ancestry this lineage is found within Jewish populations..." description of J2? I am.

Share your what you know, links to studies or your ideas about J2 here. I'm looking for new information sources and input.

[Hrodberht]

Since my own results are as yet undetermined, I have summarized for myself all the major Western haplogroups just in case: Here's what I have gathered on J2, picked up by various sources.

J2: evolved 15-20K y.a. Marker that spread from the northern Levant and is associated primarily with Semitic, Anatolian, Mediterranean, and Aegean/Greek backgrounds. There is debate over whether J2 indicates diffusion of Neolithic agriculturalists or later Phoenician-oriented maritime traders, as J2 is largely concentrated in coastal Mediterranean regions. Some scholars identify northern Iran as the focal area from which J2 dispersed. The highest frequencies of J2 are in Central and Southwest Asian populations, decreasing westward in the Balkan and Italian peninsula and dropping drastically in Central, Western, and Northern Europe. The Cohen Israelite identifier is found in J2, and Jewish populations have roughly twice as much J2 than J1. The high diversity of J2 in Turkish and southern European people possibly suggests an Aegean rather than Middle Eastern primary derivation. Geneticists think certain sub-clades of J2 originated significantly after the Neolithic revolution and represent the expansion of ancient Grecian people around Europe.

[Cinda]

Hi fellow J2's,
My paternal YDNA has been SNP's as J2 M172+.
I don't have much to offer. I've ordered the J2 Sub-clade test from FTDNA.
If you haven't ordered it yet, just look in your haplogroup tab on your personal page. It's only $79 & it's very comprehensive.
My results are due back 2/1/06.
My father's J2 results shocked me at first, since our ancestry seems to point to the UK. I've been able to trace them back to 1802 in KY.
How our J2 got to America I don't yet know. There is no history of Jewish ancestry or Med. ancestry. Where my family was from in KY, is a community that is known for it's Scot-Irish hill folk. :-). Probally all I's & R1b's. So, it's with great anticipation that I await the results.
When I get them, I'll be sure to share the info.
What about the rest of you J2's? What is your recent ancestry?
Cindy

[la_roccia]

Hi Cindy & Hrodberht, welcome to the discussion. I'm of Sicilian descent with a Norman derived surname. There are quite a few Scottish and other UK people in my ySearch "match" list. 25, compared to 7 from Italy. I'm sure that is due partly to not many Italians being tested.

Hroberht, as usual; you bring up many excellent points. The Aegean/Mediterannean source seems to fit the population pattern of J2.

Here are some links that I have read possibly connecting J2 with various peoples and migrations:
http://www.answers.com/topic/scythia
http://www.geocities.com/elemtilas/i...isad/seimi.htm I read that some 14% of Saami were J2, these could have contributed to the Norman and their expansions. Another part of Viking history that seems to get overlooked is that the Saami fought and traded with the Vikings. I might have some links for that on the other computer.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1181945 The Etruscans as a J2 source in Italy and neighboring areas
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greeknry/ Ancient Greek contribution of J2 to Italy and other areas

I have more links to papers and sites on my other computer and will post them soon. Feel free to submit more as I am interested in learning more about our Haplo.

Thanks,

La_Roccia

[la_roccia]

J2 distribution

Haplogroup J2 consists exclusively of two separate subclades: J2a-M410 and J2b-M12.

Crete, occupying the southmost of the Greek world has an M12/M172 ratio of 2.2% [1]. This ratio is 20% [1] or 42.2% [2], a weighted average of 26%. In Northern Greece (Macedonia) it is 43.2% [2].

In Albania, the same ratio is 100% in the small sample of [1] and 54.6% as reported by [2], a weighted average of 55%.

In Bulgaria, the ratio is 28.6% [1] and in Romania, the ratio is 0% in the good sample of [1]. In the Ukraine it is 32.9% [2]

According to [3], the ratio is high in Serbs (66.3%). The few Croatians and Herzegovinians belonging in haplogroup J2 belong to the M12 clade, giving a ratio of 100% [2,3]. Similarly in Poland (100%) [2], and Czech Republic/Slovakia (50%) [1].

The distinction between the Western and Eastern Balkans that I have spoken of before is clear in this regard. M12 clade comprises the majority of J2 in the West and the minority in the East. Moreover, Slavic speakers of continental Europe belong more to the M12 clade, whereas those bordering Black Sea are more inclined to have a low frequency of M12, including the non-Slavic Romanians who lack M12 altogether. In historical times, the Balkans were inhabited by several Indo-European peoples which could be classified in the macro-groups of Illyrians (west) and Thracians (east). Greek trade and settlement occurred in both the Adriatic and the Black Sea, but the Greek presence was probably heavier and more long-lasting (until recent times) in the latter region.

Italy resembles the Greek-Black Sea area. Southern Italy has a ratio of 12.4%, while Northern Italy has a ratio of 25% [1]. North-Central Italy (35.7%), and two Calabrian samples (1%), and Sicily (0%). The latter two locations were Greek speaking for the major part of their recorded history.

Turkey resembles the Greek-Black Sea-South Italian area with an overall ratio of 7.1% [4]. Turkey was primarily Greek, Armenian and Kurdish speaking before the arrival of the Altaic-speaking Turks. Before that, it was also home to a variety of languages, including several extinct languages of the Indo-European family such as Hittite, Luvian, Palaic, Lydian, Lycian, Phrygian, and Celtic.

[1] Di Giacomo (2004)
[2] Semino (2004)
[3] Pericic (2006)
[4] Cinnioglu (2004)

From http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

[la_roccia]

"The Phrygians had an equipment very like that of the Paphlagonians with some slight difference. Now the Phrygians, as the Macedonians say, used to be called Brigians during the time that they were natives of Europe and dwelt with the Macedonians; but after they had changed into Asia, with their country they changed also their name and were called Phrygians. The Armenians were armed just like the Phrygians, being settlers from the Phrygians. Of these two together the commander was Artochmes, who was married to a daughter of Dareios." Herodotus, vii, 73
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh7070.htm

"Phrygia is the Greek name of an ancient state in western-central Anatolia (modern Turkey), extending from the Eskishehir area east to (perhaps) Bogazköy and Alishar Hüyük within the Halys River bend. The Assyrians, a powerful state in northern Mesopotamia to the south, called the state Mushki; what its own people called it is unknown. We know from their inscriptions that the Phrygians spoke an Indo-European language. Judging from historical records supported by ceramic evidence, settlers migrating from the Balkans in Europe first settled here a hundred or more years following the destruction of the Hittite empire (ca. 1200 BC)." The Metropolitan Museum of Art: 'Phrygia, Gordion, and King Midas in the Late Eighth Century B.C.'
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/phry/hd_phry.htm

"There is evidence that in ancient times a distinct subfamily of Indo-European languages existed that is now called Thraco-Phrygian. To it belonged Phrygian (an ancient and now extinct Indo-European language of Anatolia) and Thracian (a now dead Indo-European tongue of the Balkans in antiquity). Modern Armenian may well be a direct descendant of Phrygian." The Columbia Encyclopedia: 'Armenian language'
http://www.bartleby.com/65/ar/ArmenLan.html

"All the unrooted trees agree that there are four supergroups of IE languages (Balto-Slavonic, Romano-Germano-Celtic, Armenian-Greek, and Indo-Iranian)" Rexova K. (2003) Cladistic analysis of languages: Indo-European classification based on lexicostatistical data, Cladistics 19(2)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...2003.tb00299.x

From: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

[la_roccia]

Calabrians as Greek descenants

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/09...escenants.html

"Before the Roman conquest, and for a long time afterwards, Calabria was Greek speaking. Greek speakers were descended from the Ancient Greek colonists, but also from medieval Greek settlements during the Byzantine era. Greek was widely spoken in very recent times, and even today there are few Greek-speaking survivors, speaking Griko, an Italian dialect of the Greek language.

Most of the Greeks of Calabrians are now Italianized, but it is very likely that due to the mostly rural conditions of the region, the absence of significant foreign settlements and the late survival of Greek, that they may be largely descended from the medieval Greeks of the region, and even before that, the Greeks of mainland Greece. Moreover, since Greek settlement in Calabria largely pre-dates the descents of Slavs and Albanians in Greece, we may be able to (roughly) determine the extent of the impact of these elements in the modern Greek population.

Two papers in the literature [1, 2] report on the frequency of Y-chromosome haplogroups in the population of Calabira. [1] reports data labeled as "Calabrians", and [2] reports data on the population of Reggio and Paola. The cumulative sample has a size of N=87. Frequency data are shown below, with Greek frequency data also shown for comparison from [3]"

"Of course, frequencies may be modified by random genetic drift, and Calabrians are not descended from all Greek regions, but we can still make some general observations about their commonalities and differences.

In both Calabrians and Greeks, haplogroup J2 appears to be very frequent, and haplogroup E3b is also very frequent. It appears very likely that these two haplogroups were represented in ancient populations.

Calabrians have a higher frequency of haplogroup R1b. This haplogroup originated in Asia, but its most recent expansions mark the movements of people from Iberia and Anatolia after the Last Glacial Maximum. Italians have a generally higher frequency of this haplogroup, and hence it appears likely that R1b in Calabrians may partially represent the contribution of native Italians to their gene pool.

Calabrians also have a higher frequency of haplogroup J1. This haplogroup originated in the southern part of the Fertile Crescent, and is often (but not exclusively) found in modern Semitic speakers such as Jews and Arabs. This may represent remnants of Near Eastern people during post-Roman times, even though its earlier arrival cannot be entirely excluded.

Finally, a striking feature of the frequency table is the paucity of R1a and I lineages in Calabrians. R1a originated in the Ukraine and spread after the Last Glacial Maximum, but more recently with Slavic speakers. I1b originated in the Balkans and spread during late Paleolithic and early Neolithic and subsequent times.

It is fairly interesting that in a study which included a Cypriot sample [4], only 2% of Cypriots carried haplogroup R1a chromosomes. Cypriots are also a population which separated from mainland Greeks before the medieval period. The frequency of haplogroup I chromosomes is not available for Cypriots.

Also, of interest is the fact that in regions of Anatolia [5] inhabited by Greek speakers until recently, and in which the native population may be assumed to be descended partially from Islamized Greeks, the frequencies of haplogroups R1a and I are also low. In the Aegean region (8) they are 3.3% and 6.7%, and in the eastern Black Sea region (3) where Muslim Greek speakers still exist, they are 4.8% and 2.4%. Moreover in Anatolia R1a1 frequency is correlated with longitude, declining towards Greece. R1a frequency also decreases from north to south in the Balkans [6].

In conclusion, this small survey provides some evidence against the notion that Y-haplogroups I and especially R1a were substantially represented in ancient Greeks. The relative absence of these haplogroups in populations thought to be partially descended from Greeks, in addition to the decrease in frequency of R1a both north-to-south in the Balkans and east-to-west in Anatolia are the main reasons for this observation.

Naturally, I doubt that we can statistically exclude the presence of either haplogroup -at some low frequency- in ancient Greeks using these relatively small samples, but at least we have some indication that they probably did not form a substantial part of their patrilineal descent.

Update

In a larger sample of Calabrians, the haplogroup I frequency is 5.4%, and that in Sicilians is 8.8% [7]. Haplogroup I lineages in the Balkans and Italy are divided mainly into I1a, I1b, and I*(xI1a, I1b).

Update 2

I also came across this interesting paper (Coll Antropol. 2001 Jun;25(1):189-93.) which further substantiates the idea of the genetic isolation of Reggio Calabria, listed as REG above:
Surnames of grandparents were collected from children in the primary schools of the Albanian-Italian, Croat-Italian, and Greek-Italian villages. The coefficients of relationships by isonymy show almost no relationship with ethnicity. Ethnolinguistic minorities of Southern Italy and Sicily are geographically subdivided in two main clusters: the first cluster comprises the Albanian, Croat, and Greek communities of the Adriatic area; and the second cluster comprises the Albanian communities of the Ionian, Thirrenian and Sicilian area. The Greeks of Reggio Calabria Province are completely separated from the other communities.
It would be extremely interesting to see a study that focused only on Greek speakers of Reggio Calabria."

From http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

[josh w.]

My J2 background is Ashkenaz Jewish. Most of my distant matches were from central Asia rather than Europe. Has anyone else had a similar pattern.

[Krum]

I have a similar pattern, Josh. I am J2 and I am from Bulgaria. This result did not surprise me as my ancestors are supposed to have come from Central Asia in the 3 century AD. As far as I know Ashkenazi Jews are decendants of the Hazara people who came from Central Asia a few centuries after the Bulgars and conquerred part of them while pushing the rest out of the North Caucasuss region. Hazara and the Bulgars are considered to have been very closely related, both ethnically and linguistically.

[josh w.]

Krum, I appreciate the feedback. My situation is still uncertain since my closer matches are either Jewish or from the Near East, e.g. Samaritans or Lebanese. Presumably the Khazars had mainly Turkic haplogroups such as R,P and possibly Q. There is evidence that J2 spead eastward from Iraq-Iran but the history of the migration is not clear. Probably there was J2 gene flow into Turkic areas as part of this eastward migration. Part of the problem may be that some areas are not that well represented in the Ftdna sample.For example, I expected to have Turkish matches, but there were none.

[josh w.]

P.S. There may be some subclades of J2 that might be common among those of Jewish ancestry but probably are not uniquely Jewish.

[dentate]

Krum and Josh,

I am obligated to point out once again that this idea about Ashkenazim being descended from Khazars (not Hazara, who are a Mongol-speaking group in Afghanistan) is controversial to say the least. Around 20% of Ashkenazim are J2 and a slightly smaller percentager are J1. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Khazars were the source of this J2. On the other hand, the presence of R1a1 in Ashkenazi Levites, as well as the presence of Q, are highly likely to be Khazar. The Turks originated in what is now Mongolia and the Khazars dominated the area that is now Ukraine and the northern Caucasus; that is not J2 territory. J2 in the Khazar empire would likely have come up from Anatolia, Persia, and other areas that would have included "classic" Jewish immigration that brought the religion to them in the first place.

If any other proof were needed that the Ashkenazim are NOT simply the descendants of the Khazars, my own Ashkenazi mtDNA will do it. It is N1b. You will not find that in Central Asian Turks.

As I say, this is a sensitive and politically charged subject. However, the emerging consensus appears to be that the majority (60-80%) of Jewish Y DNA in Ashkenazim is of Middle Eastern origin, while about a similar proportion of the mtDNA is of European origin. The non-Middle Eastern portion likely includes local European admixture and some unknown proportion of Khazar descent.

Once again, Hrodberht is inaccurate. The "classic" CMH is found in J1, not J2. There may be J2 individuals with a very similar STR haplotype and there may be more than one clan claiming this status, but to state that CMH is J2 is wrong.

Josh, the pattern of my Y matches (I am J2f, further refinement underway) is exactly similar to yours.

[Hrodberht]

"Again", whatever. Take a look at my odious, crackpot, agenda-driven, twisted source for the J2 statement:

http://www.roperld.com/YBiallelicHaplogroups.htm

I probably copied down this information without cross-checking and updating. It's not like I willfully and malignantly misrepresent things just for the heck of it.

[la_roccia]

Interesting

Here's another quote from Dieneke's site I found to be interesting. I'm posting these quotes because they are interesting to me and may be for others. I'm not qualified to debate the topics which have resulted in the beating of dead horses and pissing contests. It's just interesting material. Do what you want with it.

"Most of the genetic markers used in human phylogeographic studies have been dated to the prehistoric period, and the majority of them are of Upper Paleolithic origin.

Lately, subclades identified within some human lineages on the Y-chromosome have crossed the Neolithic barrier, and in even rarer cases, "signatures" of historical events, such as the dominance of the Mongols, the Manchu, or the Ui Neill.

As a result, most markers are suitable for examining events of human prehistory, and not of historical ethnic groups.

Of course, scientists have tried to apply genetic information to historical processes, e.g., in the case of Jewish origins, but it turns out that the "Jewish gene" or Cohen Modal Haplotype actually turns out to to be much older and not particularly Jewish after all.

Even with old markers, it is still possible to reason about historical events. For example, the theories of white nationalist Arthur Kemp about the widespread prevalence of black African slavery in the classical world have been squarely defeated by the near-complete absence of Sub-Saharan African markers in the Italian and Balkan peninsulas. Similar theories propagated by Gustav Kossina and the Aryan-Nordic camp about the Northern European origin of the Indo-Europeans of India have similarly been defeated, since Indians completely lack haplogroup I chromosomes that are frequent in European Nordic populations."

[dentate]

Hrodberht, I hope you do a better job of research on your term papers. The source you quoted is in turn quoting someone else--not original work--and goes back a number of years. The information is old. FTDNA's blurb (erroneously) says that the CMH occurs in J*, which is an extremely rare type; it appears that they have a typographical error in their J1 description because both the J1 and the J* descriptions state that CMH is in J*. Nowhere is the CMH ascribed to J2. For a more authoritative source, read the most recent paper that addresses this subject:

Di Giacomo F., et al., 2004. Y chromosomal haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic colonization of Europe. "Human Genetics" 115:357-371.

If you like to believe in old research papers, there's two guys at the University of Utah who have this breakthrough about cold fusion that you might want to announce too...