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Important Questions about Jewish and Norse R1a

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  • Important Questions about Jewish and Norse R1a

    Fascinatingly, a large portion of Ashkenazic Jews and especially
    Levites possess what most consider the typically "Aryan" marker, R1a.

    Has the possibility ever been considered that this Indo-European
    heritage of the Levites, the putatively most endogamous group among
    the Jews, is not a reflection of recent Khazar and Slavic
    intermixture but reflective of an elite core of priestly Indo-
    Europeans within the ancient Israelites? (Some serious scholars have
    postulated an ideological and/or racial connection between the
    ancient Levites and the Indo-European Luvites/Luwians.) Myself not
    being a full-blown geneticist yet (-I'm only 20-), I wonder if one
    can look at this DNA and decisively determine whether its
    chronological status in certain Jews is actually recent or ancient?
    Considering the modern Sephardim are so intermixed with Arabs, is it
    useful to use them for purposes of comparison and to consider them as
    *the* representative Jewish group?

    ...Also, some have characterized a certain R1a Norse signature as
    indicative of Hunnish or Asiatic heritage. Yet, according to the
    scientists, R1a was ultimately born in the Ukrainian Kurgans.
    Subsequent migrations might have sent this R1a deep into Asia, but
    isn't the Ukraine considered part of Eastern EUROPE and thus the
    Western world? R1a originally sprung up and is native to the West, so
    I question the utility of designating any of its branches as
    genuinely Asiatic, Hunnish, Chinese or Mongolian or whatever.

  • #2
    As posted elsewhere, the ancient Israelites clearly intermarried with and converted some members of the local Middle Eastern populations, including Hittites who spoke an Indo-European language, so an Indo-European component to their population is not out of the question. R1a1 is not really "Western" in the sense of European (remember that "Europe" is just a political entity on a map, and has no real meaningful eastern border). It is unclear just where the various R subclades originated, especially now with research in India showing that it has been present their for a very long time.

    However the "elite core" of the Israelites were not the Levi'im but the Cohanim, descendants of Aaron, who like his brother Moses was, according to tradition, of the tribe of Levi. Thus they form a subset of the Levites with special elevated status. But the vast majority of men claiming Cohen status are either J1 or J2, and few if any at all are R1a1.

    So, it is conceivable that some R and R subgroups in modern Jews is of ancient origin. I agree that further research into related populations will shed some light on this. But it is much more likely, as you speculate in one of your other posts, that this represents either local Slavic or older Khazar ancestry for some of the Ashkenazi Levites.
    Last edited by dentate; 19 December 2005, 03:57 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dentate
      As posted elsewhere, the ancient Israelites clearly intermarried with and converted some members of the local Middle Eastern populations, including Hittites who spoke an Indo-European language, so an Indo-European component to their population is not out of the question. R1a1 is not really "Western" in the sense of European (remember that "Europe" is just a political entity on a map, and has no real meaningful eastern border). It is unclear just where the various R subclades originated, especially now with research in India showing that it has been present their for a very long time.

      However the "elite core" of the Israelites were not the Levi'im but the Cohanim, descendants of Aaron, who like his brother Moses was, according to tradition, of the tribe of Levi. Thus they form a subset of the Levites with special elevated status. But the vast majority of men claiming Cohen status are either J1 or J2, and few if any at all are R1a1.

      So, it is conceivable that some R and R subgroups in modern Jews is of ancient origin. I agree that further research into related populations will shed some light on this. But it is much more likely, as you speculate in one of your other posts, that this represents either local Slavic or older Khazar ancestry for some of the Ashkenazi Levites.
      It would be interesting to find out the markers of the Jewish R groups and compare to say Turkey, who show quite a bit of R, R1a and R1b. As you mentioned, the Hittites were Indo European and lived in Turkey and Syria. Even some of my R1b mutation matches show Russian Ashkenazi with one Netherland Ashkenazi Levite. But hey, it alsow shows Central Asian Chinese, Syrian Arab and Native Siberian. Of course, these go back thousands upon thousands of years and IMO Exact matches will only help to pinpoint nation and ethnic ancestry.

      Comment


      • #4
        Im R1a but am confused about all the recent origins

        Im new to this my results were
        Exact Matches
        Austria 1 , Ireland 2 , Norway 1, Sweden 1, Saudi Arabia 1, ???
        England 4 , Scotland 1, Tibet 1,???
        One step mutations
        Netherlands 1 Ashkenazi Levite,, Scotland 26, Ireland,10,
        Russia 1 ,Ashkenazi, Shetland Islands 5, Norway 11,
        Ukraine 1, Ashkenazi
        and in two step I have 17 matches in Ashkenazi and A/ Levite I realize that the Vikings went all over and did go to russia and down to turkey. I have found people with my last name from Poland and Czech republic and Lithuania
        but I cant find my family tree before 1700 in North Carolina and the people with my last name on this site are not related to me

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm working on a reply to the original post, but I found this, and though it was worth sharing.
          http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...abstracts.html
          F. di Giacomo et al., Y chromosomal variation in the Czech Republic

          In order to analyse the contribution of the Czech Republic to the genetic landscape of Europe, we typed 257 male subjects from 5 locations for 17 Unique Event Polymorphisms of the Y chromosome. Sixteen haplogroups or sub-haplogroups were identified, with only 5 chromosomes uncharacterized. Overall, the degree of population structuring was low. The three commonest haplogroups were R1a
          (0.344), P*(xR1a) (0.281) and I (0.184). M157, M56 and M87 showed no variation within haplogroup R1a. Haplogroup I was mostly represented as I1b* and I1b2 was also detected in this population. Thus, the majority of the Czech male gene pool is accounted for by the three main haplogroups found in western and central Europe, the Balkans and the Carpathians. Haplogroup J was found at low frequency, in agreement with a low gene flow with the Mediterranean. In order to draw inferences on the dynamics of the Czech population, we typed 141 carriers of the 3 most common haplogroups for 10 microsatellites, and applied coalescent analyses. While the age of the I clade agreed with that reported in the vast study of Rootsi et al (2004), the ages of its sub-haplogroups differed considerably, showing that the I chromosomes sampled in the Czech Republic are a subset of those found throughout Europe. Haplogroup R1a turned out to be the youngest with an estimated age well after the Last Glacial Maximum. For all three major haplogroups the results indicate a fast population growth, beginning at approximately 60-80 generations ago.

          The young age of R1a1 in Czechs, combined with its high frequency make it a likely candidate as reflecting historical or recent prehistorical events, and less likely to reflect the post-LGM recolonization of Europe.

          Comment


          • #6
            DNA of a 2,000-Year-Old Necropolis in Mongolia

            All I recall about this is that they had a hard time getting definitive results, but what they did achieve suggested the population was hybrid Asian/European. The population is attributed to the Huns.
            Nuclear and Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of a 2,000-Year-Old Necropolis in the Egyin Gol Valley of Mongolia
            DNA was extracted from the skeletal remains of 62 specimens excavated from the Egyin Gol necropolis, in northern Mongolia. This burial site is linked to the Xiongnu period and was used from the 3rd century b.c. to the 2nd century a.d. Three types of genetic markers were used to determine the genetic relationships between individuals buried in the Egyin Gol necropolis. Results from analyses of autosomal and Y chromosome short tandem repeats, as well as mitochondrial DNA, showed close relationships between several specimens and provided additional background information on the social organization within the necropolis as well as the funeral practices of the Xiongnu people. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first study using biparental, paternal, and maternal genetic systems to reconstruct partial genealogies in a protohistoric necropolis.
            http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1180365
            Last edited by Hetware; 26 January 2006, 08:50 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hrodberht
              Fascinatingly, a large portion of Ashkenazic Jews and especially
              Levites possess what most consider the typically "Aryan" marker, R1a.

              Has the possibility ever been considered that this Indo-European
              heritage of the Levites, the putatively most endogamous group among
              the Jews, is not a reflection of recent Khazar and Slavic
              intermixture but reflective of an elite core of priestly Indo-
              Europeans within the ancient Israelites? (Some serious scholars have
              postulated an ideological and/or racial connection between the
              ancient Levites and the Indo-European Luvites/Luwians.) Myself not
              being a full-blown geneticist yet (-I'm only 20-), I wonder if one
              can look at this DNA and decisively determine whether its
              chronological status in certain Jews is actually recent or ancient?
              Considering the modern Sephardim are so intermixed with Arabs, is it
              useful to use them for purposes of comparison and to consider them as
              *the* representative Jewish group?
              The Bible is NOT history!

              The Bible is a lot of legend with a little history mixed in. The Maccabees probably represent real people who lived at the times attributed to them, and accomplished some of what they are credited with.

              Hyrcana
              Hyrcana (Old Persian Varkâna, 'country of wolves'): part of the ancient Achaemenid empire, on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea.

              Hyrcania is situated between the Caspian Sea -which was called Hyrcanian Ocean in Antiquity- in the north and the Elburz mountains in the south and west. The country has a tropical climate and is very fertile; the Persians considered it one of 'the good lands and countries' which their supreme god Ahuramazda had created personally (text). To the northeast, Hyrcania is open to the Central-Asian steppe, where nomads have been living for centuries; on several occasions, they invaded the country.

              Hyrcania became part of the Achaemenid empire during the reign of king Cyrus the Great (559-530) or Cambyses (530-522). The satrap's capital was called Zadracarta, and was possibly identical to modern Sârî. There is no report about the conquest of Hyrcania, but from the Behistun inscription we know that it was Persian by 522. The story is as follows:...
              Feynman claimed he chose Tuva at random by spinning the globe with his eyes closed and putting his finger on the place where it stopped. He peeked.

              Richard Feynman in Tuva

              Originally posted by Hrodberht
              ...Also, some have characterized a certain R1a Norse signature as
              indicative of Hunnish or Asiatic heritage. Yet, according to the
              scientists, R1a was ultimately born in the Ukrainian Kurgans.
              Subsequent migrations might have sent this R1a deep into Asia, but
              isn't the Ukraine considered part of Eastern EUROPE and thus the
              Western world? R1a originally sprung up and is native to the West, so
              I question the utility of designating any of its branches as
              genuinely Asiatic, Hunnish, Chinese or Mongolian or whatever.
              Attila wasn't real picky. If you pointed the sword away from him and you were willing to slaughter your neighbor and give Atilla the booty, you were hired.

              As for R1a originating north of the Black Sea, I suspect we would need to redraw this map: Tocharian Origins. The problem is that the Tocharians seem to be connected with the Afanaseivo (also spelled: Afanasevo, Afanas'evo) culture, and also with R1b. One speculation I've encountered - I don't recall where - was that the Aryans originated somewhere around Manchuria. Or - more fantastically - even farther to the east. I reaman uncertain what to make of that. I am aware of some evidence that the Han Chinese may have displace or deomgraphically overwhelmed a "European Type" population in what is now Shangdong and to the north. The source is a scientific paper written by exclusively Asian authors from prestigious institutions.

              There are certainly problems with trying to connect any such population with Aryans. For one, we have clear evidence for an Aryan presence in Mesopotamia and the Levant in the middle of the second millenium BCE. Most significantly, the Mitanni who proved their Vedic credentials in a correspondence with the Hittites. There are several noblemen with Vedic Aryan names mentioned in the Amarna Letters originating in places such as Hebron and other parts of southern Palestine, as well as in Syria. See Pritchard, http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/565.html.

              Many mainstream scholars like to place the geographical location where the Rig Veda was composed in http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/maps/gandh.html, and the date around mid-second millenium BCE. More on http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/gandara/gandara.html.

              The reason I have considered R1a to be a probable signal for Aryan presence is due to the high frequency of R1a in India, as well as a big swath cut through the Centum linguistic continuum which more or less corresponds with the Scythian expansion. I attribute that same Scythian expansion with the spread of R1a into the Germanic population. The notion of a Vedic Aryan invasion of India has been seriously challenged in recent years, but the subsequent Scythian invasions do stand up to scrutiny.

              I'll have to finish this discussion later, but for now, I'm going to follow this post with one about the R1a in Lithuania, which appears to support the notion that R1a, at least in Europe is the result of a recent population explosion.

              Comment


              • #8
                I must voice my misgivings regarding the reputatoin of the Max Planck Institute represented by Professor Stoneking in the report referenced below.. The administrators of the Max Planck Institue have demonstrated clearly that when politics and scientific evidence conflict, they will side with the forces of intellectual oppression over the careful investigation of their own scientists. I hope that disgraceful and despicable conduct on the part of the administrators does not reflect upon the quality of work produced by Dr. Stoneking. Nonetheless, I must inform the reader of the questionable nature of his employer. See more below.

                Genetic composition of the Lithuanians revealed by mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome variation
                The genetic composition of the Lithuanian population was investigated by analysing mitochondrial DNA hypervariable region 1 and RFLP polymorphisms and Y chromosomal biallelic and STR markers in six ethnolinguistic groups of Lithuanians to address questions about origin and genetic structure of the present day population. Historically, different ethnolinguistic groups have developed for a long time as different Baltic tribes, which resulted in linguistic differentiation. However, we have not detected significant genetic differences between groups and analysis of molecular variance confirmed homogeneity of Lithuanian population both for mtDNA and Y-chromosome markers. Mitochondrial DNA diversity revealed that Lithuanians were characterized by the same mtDNA haplogroups that described 95% of variation in Europe and were close both to Slavic (Indo-European) and Finno-Ugric speaking populations of Northern and Eastern Europe. Y-chromosome analysis showed Lithuanian population to be closest to Latvians and Finno-Ugric speaking Estonians. The lack of correlation between genetic distances based on mtDNA and Y chromosome variation indicated different female and male histories. The most frequent (45% of all Lithuanian Y chromosomes) are haplogroup 3 Y chromosomes that reflect influence of Indo-Europeans during formation of Balts. The second major component (37%) is haplogroup 16 (characterized by TatC allele) Y chromosomes. They are frequent in Uralic and Altaic speakers of northern Eurasia and reflect migrations from Asia. We have detected lower gene diversity among Lithuanian haplogroup 16, but not haplogroup 3 Y chromosomes, which indicated a recent population bottleneck, which might be associated with Indo-Europeanization process. Significant differences between Lithuanian and Estonian Y chromosome STR haplotypes suggests that these populations have different origins or have differentiated before Indo-Europeanization took place in Eastern Baltic.
                Draft letter by Max Plank of 10 October 1938 to the Jewish members of the Academy, A. Goldschmidt, E. Norden, and I. Schur, in which he suggests their "voluntary" withdrawal.

                "Highly esteemed Colleague, I am fulfilling a grave official duty in notifying you that in a decree submitted today, my superior the Minister has ordered that the Academy modify its statutes to reflect the basic ideology prevailing in political and intellectual life. In particular, the Minister wishes, among other things, that it be statutorily set forth that regular membership in the Academy require qualification as a Reich citizen. ... I believe I have done you a service, highly esteemed colleague, by informing you of this decree prior to its submission before the Academy at its next meeting, and may anticipate your decision."
                Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.
                Voltaire, letter to M. le Riche, February 6, 1770
                "We have put a stop to the idea that it is a part of everybody's
                civil rights to say whatever he pleases." - Adolf Hitler, February 22, 1942

                The Lineage I am trying to prove.

                What is Truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside
                from Truth I could keep to the Truth and leave God. - Meister Eckhart

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