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Haplogroup Q & the Khazars

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  • Haplogroup Q & the Khazars

    My SNP test confirmed that I belong to Haplogroup Q. What does this mean in regard to my Jewish Ancestry? The National Genographic Project states that "Haplogroup Q, defined by marker M242, appeared on the M45 lineage and includes most Native Americans. Its origin lies in Siberia some 15,000 to 20,000 years ago-during the savagely cold climate of that period." How did people from Siberia end up being Jewish? Does anyone know if there is any credible research on the Khazars converting to Judaism? Also, does anyone know specifically what haplogroups are related to the Khazars?

  • #2
    A good starting point for your research:
    http://www.jogg.info/coffman.htm

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    • #3
      It is highly interesting and ironic, that, but for a tiny remnant, modern "Jews" are, according to the ancient standards, mamzerim, i.e. mixed. North African Sephardic Israelis are genetically indistinguishable from their Arab neighbors. Meanwhile, the massive majority of "Jews" in the modern West and America, the most fanatical proponents of "Jewish" Zionism and Israeli expansionism, are descended from Khazarians.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Hrodberht
        It is highly interesting and ironic, that, but for a tiny remnant, modern "Jews" are, according to the ancient standards, mamzerim, i.e. mixed. North African Sephardic Israelis are genetically indistinguishable from their Arab neighbors. Meanwhile, the massive majority of "Jews" in the modern West and America, the most fanatical proponents of "Jewish" Zionism and Israeli expansionism, are descended from Khazarians.
        or american christian fundlementalists

        ever wonder what happened to the black slaves serving the adptee mother of moses in the 10 comandments
        they were assigned a tribe and intermarried with the hebrew population in the tribes. especaily since being jewish is from "is your mother jewish"
        their children would of been jewish if they married a jewish lady

        i imagine this happened alot

        Comment


        • #5
          Good point, Jim. Manipulable American Christian Evangelical Fundamentalists are usually more megalomaniacal about Zionism than the ones actually inhabiting the Middle East. Strange, strange world.

          I've always found the matrilineal method of derivation current in Judaism rather strange, considering this religion is so patriarchal (Levite, Luwian/Indo-Aryan influence?) in other respects. Certainly creates a confused ethnic and genetic situation.

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          • #6
            Hrodberht,

            You are correct in that the majority of Jewish mtDNA (whether it is Sephardi, Ashkenazi, or Mizrahi) is a subgroup of that found in the surrounding populations, although there is a significant proportion of mtDNA that is of ancient Middle Eastern origin also. But this is NOT true of the Y DNA. The majority of that DNA, in all Jewish populations except the Ethiopians, is more similar that that of other Jewish populations, and after that to the Y DNA of other Middle Eastern populations, than it is to the surrounding host populations. There are plenty of reports here in the FTDNA library and easily found on the Internet that describe this. I also agree with you that Y DNA such as Q, R1a1, or R* is likely of Khazar origin, and again I agree that there are some people unwilling to accept this reality without discomfort.

            But it is utterly incorrect to state that the "massive majority" of Jews anywhere are the descendants of Khazars or other non-Jewish populations. The most common Y haplogroups in Jews are J1, J2, and E3b. These are not of Central Asian origin. As for mtDNA, in Ashkenazim, it is either Middle Eastern or European, but you will not find Central Asian mtDNA in modern Jews at any appreciable rate. To the extent that ANY modern population can trace its ancestry back over 2000 years, DNA has shown that the Jews are indeed whom they say they are. This FTDNA forum gives ample proof of the diversity of haplogroups found in every ethnicity on the planet. No "nation" has uniform paternal or maternal DNA types.

            As to matrilineal descent, Jews are indeed patriarchal but matrilineal. The custom of determining Jewish ancestry through the mother arose in post-Biblical times, probably during the Roman occupation or shortly thereafter. And, also under Roman rule, Jews actively proselytized; at one time it is said that as much as 10% of the Eastern Roman Empire considered itself Jewish. Some proselytization continued up until the time of the First Crusade, at which point being Jewish in Europe became too onerous to merit this.

            It is likely that in the early part of the Diaspora there were more Jewish men abroad than women, that local wives were found and converted, and that later when Jewish communities became "closed" this process stopped, accounting for the difference in the patterns of mtDNA and Y DNA. And it is also likely that at least some proportion of the Khazar nation remained Jewish after that empire collapsed, contributing some Central Asian genes to the Eastern European Jewish community.

            DNA has nothing whatever to do with politics or with Zionism and, contrary to the assertions of the UN, Zionism (whether you love it or hate it) is not racism and has nothing to do with race--it is nationalism. You can love or hate nationalism, too; but to speak with disdain of Zionism because Jews are not 100% genetically "pure" descendants of the ancient Israelites (who themselves were a mix of peoples anyway) is as absurd as saying that you shouldn't have a France because some of the French might not be descended from the Gauls or that you shouldn't expect the Irish to have their own country because they are not all R1b--some of them might be descended from Vikings, like some Russians--should we now all start sorting people out on the basis of their haplogroups???
            Last edited by dentate; 19 December 2005, 02:39 AM.

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            • #7
              dentate,

              You are undoubtedly right. I was being irresponsibly simplistic when I used the words "massive majority". I acknowledge that Jews are a composite group of Middle Eastern, Indo-European, Asiatic, and African genetic backgrounds, with Middle Eastern and Indo-European predominating. The French philosopher Gobineau referred to this process of pan-human amalgamation as semiticization.

              As to Zionism, you need not feel defensive. I am no clear and present danger to the Jewish community. I do perhaps wish the aryanized Jews of modernity would drop their biblical hypocrisy and become honest Machiavellians, but I don't expect much of any set of humans. I am indifferent if the inherently mendacious simian tribalist slaves of the demiurge on this planet cling to their delusory totemistic self-esteem mechanisms. Nationalism, internationalism, marxism, capitalism, fascism are merely pious verbalisms to cover up the lecherous self-seeking nothingness of groups of barely spiritually evolved, hairless monkeys. I know better than to do anything but laugh in a mix of sadness and contempt at the farce of human politics.

              Comment


              • #8
                I have decided to stop posting at DNA messageboards because my interest in the unmoralistic truth and its various possibilities is not aligned to modern sensitivities. Sorry if I offended anyone in my brief stay.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hrodberht
                  Good point, Jim. Manipulable American Christian Evangelical Fundamentalists are usually more megalomaniacal about Zionism than the ones actually inhabiting the Middle East. Strange, strange world.

                  I've always found the matrilineal method of derivation current in Judaism rather strange, considering this religion is so patriarchal (Levite, Luwian/Indo-Aryan influence?) in other respects. Certainly creates a confused ethnic and genetic situation.

                  Some of this is when the base of belief condems the restriction of freedom
                  christianity and jeudism enanced the role of women in a world full of dominant men.

                  and why wouldnt it when its maker knew women were the deciding factor

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Being Jewish is not defined genetically. The conversion process allows anyone to become Jewish. It is possible to have Jewish ancestry, and not be Jewish. It is also possible to be Jewish, and have no Jewish ancestry. The Jews are a people, comprised of many different varieties.
                    I think it is interesting to note that my 12 Marker Y-DNA Matches gives me 2 matches for Arab. One from Syria and one from Saudi Arabia.
                    The topic of the Khazars is a favorite among anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists. They use it as a justification as to why Israel should not exist.
                    Have there been any studies on the Khazar's DNA? Is there any proof that connects Haplogroups R1a1 and Q to the Khazars? Or is this research being avoided?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jerochim
                      Being Jewish is not defined genetically. The conversion process allows anyone to become Jewish. It is possible to have Jewish ancestry, and not be Jewish. It is also possible to be Jewish, and have no Jewish ancestry. The Jews are a people, comprised of many different varieties.
                      I think it is interesting to note that my 12 Marker Y-DNA Matches gives me 2 matches for Arab. One from Syria and one from Saudi Arabia.
                      The topic of the Khazars is a favorite among anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists. They use it as a justification as to why Israel should not exist.
                      Have there been any studies on the Khazar's DNA? Is there any proof that connects Haplogroups R1a1 and Q to the Khazars? Or is this research being avoided?
                      Exactly, I show the same 12 marker Y-dna for Arab with both of mine being Syrian. I also have have about 8 for Ashkenazi and Ashkenazi Levite, 2 for Chinese Muslim and a couple of Native Siberian. Yeah, and the thing is I am R1b with ancestry most likely in England.

                      R1b, R1a and R have been in the Middle East for a long time. Some of the R types are recent but some, are ancient coming from groups like the Indo European Hittities.

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                      • #12
                        Due to the disproportionate vitriol and ideological intensity unleashed upon me in private correspondence by certain individuals, I think I ought to straighten matters out:

                        1. Modern Western, Ashekenazic Jews are significantly interbred with Indo-Europeans and Central Asians. There is simply no denying this. All assertions to the contrary are anti-scientific and obscurantist. From Ellen Levy-Coffman's highly interesting report

                        http://www.jogg.info/coffman.htm

                        we see that mainstream geneticists like Cavalli-Sforza conservatively estimate Ashkenazic intermixture at around 40%. Persons who would attack me for simply acknowledging and assimilating facts are ill-motivated.

                        2. The question of Indo-European (Hittite? Luwian? Slavic? Khazar?) genetic influence in the case of the Levitical caste is legitimate, ought to be posed, and is not going away.

                        3. I apologize for my irrelevant comments relating to politics. Minor insomnia sometimes makes one forget context. Hazy, casual, primitive political comments on a DNA messageboard are inappropriate and I realize my fault. But what I did was not criminal. I tried to make it understood that I am not at all interested in modern human politics, which I regard as pure decadence across all systems and catering to bestial lowest-common-denominator desires, and I couldn't be less interested in anti-Zionism or Zionism. I am 20-year-old college student and I am currently studying my primary interests (anthropology, genetics, and archaeology) at a top-ranking college through scholarships with a career in mind. I am stoically amused by the fact that my crowd-mentality accusers assume I am assuming certain things, and then, in their totalitarian drive toward anti-totalitarianism, project their own rotten fixations (you rabid Nazi racist!) onto me and self-righteously pretend I'm scum.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Due to continuing false attacks in private correspondence, I want to publicly clarify that I will not tolerate claims that I am "anti-Semitic". Pure nonsense. Anti-Semitic? The logic is nonexistent behind this claim and I refuse to be intimidated by sophism and moralism. I made, in an inconsequential lapse of judgement that only ideological fanatics would care about, sarcastic comments relating to ZIONISM and its biblically-based ideology and the genetical reality of current-day Jews. Half-baked, sarcastic comments relating to ZIONISM do not constitute "anti-Semitism". I am "Semitic" myself. My European ancestors were brutally dehumanized in the Nazi-Fascist period due to our supposed "Jewish taint" so I find this nonsense doubly illogical and despicable. I will not tolerate the insinuation that I have some sort of unwholesome and hidden nazi-esque agenda and I have no desire to deal with these distortions and misattributions anymore.

                          This is really the last public post I want to make relating to this. Perhaps some moderator could look into my mailbox and restrain this member from further unleashing baseless attacks against my character.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hrodberht
                            dentate,

                            You are undoubtedly right. I was being irresponsibly simplistic when I used the words "massive majority". I acknowledge that Jews are a composite group of Middle Eastern, Indo-European, Asiatic, and African genetic backgrounds, with Middle Eastern and Indo-European predominating. The French philosopher Gobineau referred to this process of pan-human amalgamation as semiticization.

                            As to Zionism, you need not feel defensive. I am no clear and present danger to the Jewish community. I do perhaps wish the aryanized Jews of modernity would drop their biblical hypocrisy and become honest Machiavellians, but I don't expect much of any set of humans. I am indifferent if the inherently mendacious simian tribalist slaves of the demiurge on this planet cling to their delusory totemistic self-esteem mechanisms. Nationalism, internationalism, marxism, capitalism, fascism are merely pious verbalisms to cover up the lecherous self-seeking nothingness of groups of barely spiritually evolved, hairless monkeys. I know better than to do anything but laugh in a mix of sadness and contempt at the farce of human politics.
                            I am the person that Hrodberht is referring to in his last posting who has sent him private messages pointing out his anti-semitic comments on this board. I did not want to make that charge publicly because, frankly, his R1a theories that he has posted here and on another genetic genealogy e-mail list should not be treated too seriously, given what is their motivation.

                            Since he denies the charge, judge for yourself. I've quoted one of his recent postings on this message board. He's free to say whatever he wants, of course. But I do object to him trying to use population genetics and genetic genealogy as a cover for his motivations. If you doubt Hrodberht's true motivations, note his citation of Gobineau, a 19th century French white race supremacy advocate. Read about Gobineau at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau

                            Mike Maddi

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hrodberht
                              Due to the disproportionate vitriol and ideological intensity unleashed upon me in private correspondence by certain individuals, I think I ought to straighten matters out:

                              1. Modern Western, Ashekenazic Jews are significantly interbred with Indo-Europeans and Central Asians. There is simply no denying this. All assertions to the contrary are anti-scientific and obscurantist. From Ellen Levy-Coffman's highly interesting report

                              http://www.jogg.info/coffman.htm
                              .

                              ellens wrong we have had it out before. that's one reason i left dna genealogy.
                              scientificly lol no one wants to except archeology. look at the behiston rock. the rock is bookkeeping records of the way the assyrians moved people and other things govermental.
                              they refer to the hebrew tribe as the kumri [hard k like khumani]. it is derived
                              from the name of one of the last kings of the house of israel Omri.
                              these people in the millions crossed the mts. Ezra asked them to return to israel . they declined .
                              On the other side of the mt they dissapeared and a group numbering in the millions was found and named by the greeks Keltoi. These people because only their eldest kid would inherit and the rest had to move west to find their wealth.They did and they settled in slow waves the area know and the balkins and europe

                              what two nations in the world had cities of refuge?

                              they did not want to be known as what they were but they couldnt get rid of their traditions buried deep in their soul.
                              these were the first to bury their dead

                              oh!!! i am sorry for this i forgot science didnt cover this.pay no attention to the words above .if you do you might have to think.instead blindly except what the experts in their german relativism demand you believe. never open your mind to see what new things happen.

                              too many challanging facts might deter you from excepting all dogma approved by the acadamy of sciences.i mean we cant have another Lister or Pasteur. Dogma is important

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