mtDNA Haplogroup K

[Jambalaia32]

MMaddi-good site

Yes,I know there are Spanish Jews the Sephards. I've heard of them.I thought Kelly was saying that Spaniards originated in Central America-I know they live in the Americas but I didn't think they came from the Americas.

Maddi That's a very good web site you recommended above about the sephardim.But weren't we all talking about Bob Swinea being NA Indian with a German-mt K maternal lineage? I don't see what Sephardim Jews have to do with Indians and Germans. Is Swinea's mother Jewish as well as German and Indian?

[Eternitat]

My father is trying to determine whether the family of THE discoverer- his immediate one- were Jews or not. He says recent theories say they were NOT. However, I have always heard they were. I have even heard that the first name he used was his alias.

Most people agree by now that he was Catalan and had our family's surname.

[Bob Swinea]

Germanic!?! Ohmygosh I don't even like sauerkraut LOL
Thanks,
Bob

[Kelley]

Maddi That's a very good web site you recommended above about the sephardim.But weren't we all talking about Bob Swinea being NA Indian with a German-mt K maternal lineage? I don't see what Sephardim Jews have to do with Indians and Germans. Is Swinea's mother Jewish as well as German and Indian?

mtdna haplogroup K appears all over Europe in small amounts - but nowhere in European countries is it as prevalent as it is among Ashkenazi Jews. According to one study that compiled samples of mtdna from European countries - mtdna Hap K is most prevalent in the Isle of Skye/Western Isles with a little over 13% -- all other countries had less than 10% Hap K populations. (granted, the samples from each country were small -only in the hundreds- so it's difficult to say how accurately the study represents the European population).

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...777377271Guest

(look at TABLE 3 in the above link)

Swinea said that his mother was Native American and that was why he was surprised to have the mtdna Hap K. He wondered at what point a Hap K female had entered into his family - and my speculation was that it could have come from Spanish Jews or Spaniards who came to the American Southwest before the Northern Europeans colonized the East Coast of North America. I have done some searching but I was not able to find any studies about the mtdna haplogroups of Sephardic Jews - so I can't speculate about their numbers at all. But if Jews got their Hap K status from intermarrying with local Europeans, then it seems their chances of getting Hap K from intermarrying with Spanish are almost as good as from intermarrying with Germans since there is only a 2% difference in the number of Hap K's in those two countries.

Kelley

[Victor]

The debate over a crypto Jewish presence in New Mexico

Kelly's facts are actually well known. First of all, remember that "Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492." That started the centuries of Spanish colonization of Mexico, Central America and South America. The fact that Spanish colonizers from these areas went to what is now New Mexico, as Kelly explains in her posting, doesn't make them any less Spanish than their families who remained in Spain.

And there was a significant number of Spanish Jews. They were the Sephardic Jews who were forced by the king and queen of Spain in 1492 to either convert to Catholicism or leave Spain. The Sephardic Jews' ancestors came to Spain from the Middle East and North Africa, but Sephardic Jews were part of Spanish society for centuries. And some of them remained as part of Spanish society after converting after 1492, although they may have secretly kept up Jewish beliefs and rituals. This is exactly what I have read on this message board from Family Tree DNA customers who are U.S. Hispanics from the Southwest, including New Mexico. I remember postings by one or two of them here who were not surprised to learn that their ancestors were actually Jewish "conversos" in New Mexico who kept it secret and still considered themselves Jewish. You can read more about the "conversos" in Spain and the New World on this webpage: http://www.du.edu/~sward/sephardim.html

Mike Maddi

Mike,

You're right. Some facts are well known but others are highly speculative, specially when it comes to numbers and figures. For example, some believe that the crypto-Jewish presence in colonial New Mexico has been over-estimated significantly.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...63/ai_84396056

There are many factors at play here when it comes to people selecting and declaring what they believe is their own ancestry.

Victor

[Bob Swinea]

mtdna haplogroup K appears all over Europe in small amounts - but nowhere in European countries is it as prevalent as it is among Ashkenazi Jews. According to one study that compiled samples of mtdna from European countries - mtdna Hap K is most prevalent in the Isle of Skye/Western Isles with a little over 13% -- all other countries had less than 10% Hap K populations. (granted, the samples from each country were small -only in the hundreds- so it's difficult to say how accurately the study represents the European population).

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...777377271Guest

(look at TABLE 3 in the above link)

Swinea said that his mother was Native American and that was why he was surprised to have the mtdna Hap K. He wondered at what point a Hap K female had entered into his family - and my speculation was that it could have come from Spanish Jews or Spaniards who came to the American Southwest before the Northern Europeans colonized the East Coast of North America. I have done some searching but I was not able to find any studies about the mtdna haplogroups of Sephardic Jews - so I can't speculate about their numbers at all. But if Jews got their Hap K status from intermarrying with local Europeans, then it seems their chances of getting Hap K from intermarrying with Spanish are almost as good as from intermarrying with Germans since there is only a 2% difference in the number of Hap K's in those two countries.

Kelley

Hi Kelley,
OK...I'm still learning. Exactly what is an Ashkenadi Jew? How are they different than Sephardic Jews? I understood that Hap K started in Italy and then migrated west and north. Please tell me of Jewish connection. The Isle of Sky data was cool. There are many very old stories about the "Lost Cherokees" [pre-1700] who were supposed to live out somewhere near the Rocky Mountains south of present day Denver. Also, there are still well documented Cherokees living in Norhtern Mexico although I believe these folks got there between 1800-1840. Fascinating though. What if a Lost Cherokee took a Mexican "converso" / "conversa(?)" and returned to the southeastern homelands before 1700? What a novel that would make
Thanks,
Bob

[Kelley]

Hi Kelley,
OK...I'm still learning. Exactly what is an Ashkenadi Jew? How are they different than Sephardic Jews? I understood that Hap K started in Italy and then migrated west and north. Please tell me of Jewish connection. Bob

The Ashkenazi Jews are the Jews who settled in Europe (but not including Spain). The Sephardic Jews are the Jews of Spain and North Africa. Jambalaia said that Jews have a high incidence of HAP K from intermarrying with Europeans - although Hap K is not confined to Europeans & Jews. If you surf the web for info on Haplogroup K you will find all kinds of interesting studies. Every once in a while I like to surf and see what new information is out there.

Kelley

[Bob Swinea]

The Ashkenazi Jews are the Jews who settled in Europe (but not including Spain). The Sephardic Jews are the Jews of Spain and North Africa. Jambalaia said that Jews have a high incidence of HAP K from intermarrying with Europeans - although Hap K is not confined to Europeans & Jews. If you surf the web for info on Haplogroup K you will find all kinds of interesting studies. Every once in a while I like to surf and see what new information is out there.

Kelley

Thanks Kelley Happy New Year
Bob