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Where to find modal haplotypes for N and its subclades?

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  • Where to find modal haplotypes for N and its subclades?

    Where to find modal haplotypes for N and its subclades?

    Anyone know some heavy duty webpages about haplogroup N?

  • #2
    Y-DNA N Modal Haplotypes

    On ysearch.org you'll find the Baltic, Eastern European and German y-DNA modal haplotypes entered under ID's 7EEQP, EF3BY and YS2QZ respectively. How accurate they are I don't know, but I find it strange that I have a 12/12 match for a lot of Finnish "cousins", but at 37 markers I only have a 25/37 match with a Genetic Distance of 17 for the Baltic modal while for the Eastern Europe one I have 28/37 match with GD 9, i.e. much closer to a MRCA.

    The only "heavy duty" web data I have found for the N haplogroup so far is the Piia Serk MSc thesis, which I'm sure you have already seen.

    Comment


    • #3
      Misleading posting

      Ignore the last two lines on my previous posting. That referred to my mtDNA J* haplogroup. Sorry, I need to get some sleep!

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Svein Davidsen,

        I already know those modal types on ysearch.org, just as you since we have exact same Y-DNA 12 also got exact match on that finnic-baltic modal haplotype, but it is interesting what you said about you suddenly get closer to the eastearn european haplotype when increasing to Y 37. I wonder if it is correct or if it at all is possible to compare those numbers over Y 12 using simple arit. Maybe the whole haplotype put there is wrong, we do not know how he arrived at that or where it came from.

        It is hard life beeing a genology fan, so be all means get some sleep

        Originally posted by Svein Davidsen
        On ysearch.org you'll find the Baltic, Eastern European and German y-DNA modal haplotypes entered under ID's 7EEQP, EF3BY and YS2QZ respectively. How accurate they are I don't know, but I find it strange that I have a 12/12 match for a lot of Finnish "cousins", but at 37 markers I only have a 25/37 match with a Genetic Distance of 17 for the Baltic modal while for the Eastern Europe one I have 28/37 match with GD 9, i.e. much closer to a MRCA.

        The only "heavy duty" web data I have found for the N haplogroup so far is the Piia Serk MSc thesis, which I'm sure you have already seen.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hei Noaide
          To try to clarify this "problem" I contacted the Project Manager of the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project and it was in fact he that calculated and entered the N modal haplotype information i ysearch. I'm copying his reply to me below so you can read yourself. So it seems that I'm not closly "related" to the Saami or Finnish people at all!! You say we match on 12/12. How are we for the other markers? You can find me as ID SW7S9.

          1. Yes, I did some statistical analysis and put them up there.

          2. Well, the N-group is uncommon, and this means that there are only few
          individuals in the input group. (20-50) But on the other hand, this group is
          very homogenous and look much the same. It is "narrow" in marker shape. (This
          means that even small numbers can be relevant to our study.)

          3. Think on a dog. We have "nose" and "tail". If two noses look the same, but
          the tails are different, it is probably two different races. In your case, you
          have many 12/12, because N-group noses look all the same. But your tail look
          different. In my mind, the other N-persons are "spot on" BALTIC, but you have a
          different tail, you look to be somewhere between GERMAN and EASTERN EUROPEAN.

          4. Conclusion: It is not unthinkable that some EASTERN EUROPEAN line have
          entered via Finland into Norway during recent times. A person of this line
          might be your forefather, although it is somewhat uncommon. But I think its
          clear that you ARE NOT "BALTIC". This means that your ancestors are PROBABLY
          NOT FINNO-UGRIC (ethnic Finns in Finland).

          5. I think also that you should remember that Scandinavia had some input of
          Y-DNA from southern Russia during the Great Migration around 1-500 AD (The
          Aesir Migration). Maybe one of these persons could have been your forefather.
          If so, you have your closest relatives among other Norwegians and Scandinavians
          and in southeastern Europe, rather than in Finland or Estonia.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks very much Svein D!

            This was quite enlightning for me. Since this germanic/EE N subgroup you probably belong too (Do you know the formal subclade name for your N?) that could also mean that your N moved northwards together with some of the first germanic agriculture tribes to enter Norway from the south or maybe your relatives moved in from Denmark or Germany after the black death.

            Now I am more tempted to test for some more markers and maybe ask some researcher for modal N data from investigations made of Saami Y-DNA in recent years.

            Originally posted by Svein Davidsen
            Hei Noaide
            To try to clarify this "problem" I contacted the Project Manager of the Scandinavian Y-DNA Project and it was in fact he that calculated and entered the N modal haplotype information i ysearch. I'm copying his reply to me below so you can read yourself. So it seems that I'm not closly "related" to the Saami or Finnish people at all!! You say we match on 12/12. How are we for the other markers? You can find me as ID SW7S9.

            1. Yes, I did some statistical analysis and put them up there.

            2. Well, the N-group is uncommon, and this means that there are only few
            individuals in the input group. (20-50) But on the other hand, this group is
            very homogenous and look much the same. It is "narrow" in marker shape. (This
            means that even small numbers can be relevant to our study.)

            3. Think on a dog. We have "nose" and "tail". If two noses look the same, but
            the tails are different, it is probably two different races. In your case, you
            have many 12/12, because N-group noses look all the same. But your tail look
            different. In my mind, the other N-persons are "spot on" BALTIC, but you have a
            different tail, you look to be somewhere between GERMAN and EASTERN EUROPEAN.

            4. Conclusion: It is not unthinkable that some EASTERN EUROPEAN line have
            entered via Finland into Norway during recent times. A person of this line
            might be your forefather, although it is somewhat uncommon. But I think its
            clear that you ARE NOT "BALTIC". This means that your ancestors are PROBABLY
            NOT FINNO-UGRIC (ethnic Finns in Finland).

            5. I think also that you should remember that Scandinavia had some input of
            Y-DNA from southern Russia during the Great Migration around 1-500 AD (The
            Aesir Migration). Maybe one of these persons could have been your forefather.
            If so, you have your closest relatives among other Norwegians and Scandinavians
            and in southeastern Europe, rather than in Finland or Estonia.

            Comment


            • #7
              A is an N offshoot.

              Would "Nora" be considered the Caucasoid mother then? I do not know if this name is official. A, B, and X are N offshoots. C and D are not. So I wonder if the A/B/X ancestors of the American Indians with those haplogroups would have more Caucasoid features.

              Comment


              • #8
                We are talking about Y-DNA (male DNA).

                Originally posted by Eternitat
                A is an N offshoot.

                Would "Nora" be considered the Caucasoid mother then? I do not know if this name is official. A, B, and X are N offshoots. C and D are not. So I wonder if the A/B/X ancestors of the American Indians with those haplogroups would have more Caucasoid features.

                Comment


                • #9
                  New big paper on Norwegian Y-DNA available

                  Svein D,

                  There is a new Y-DNA available showing differences in Norwegian regions/fylker, it also include some DYS to compare yourself with.

                  "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway

                  Y-chromosomal variation at five biallelic markers (Tat, YAP, 12f2, SRY10831 and 92R7) and nine multiallelic short tandem repeat (STR) loci (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS385I/II and DYS388) in a Norwegian population sample are presented. The material consists of 1766 unrelated males of Norwegian origin. The geographical distribution of the population sample reflects fairly well the population distribution around the year 1942, which is the median birth year of the index persons. Seven hundred and twenty-one different Y-STR haplotypes but 726 different lineages (Y-STRs plus biallelic markers) were encountered. We observed six known (P*(xR1a), BR(xDE, J, N3, P), R1a, N3, DE, J), and one previously undescribed haplogroup (probably a subgroup within haplogroup P*(xR1a)). Four of the haplogroups (P*(xR1a), BR(xDE, J, N3, P), R1a and N3) represented about 98% of the population sample. The analysis of population pairwise differences indicates that the Norwegian Y-chromosome distribution most closely resembles those observed in Iceland, Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark. Within Norway, geographical substructuring was observed between regions and counties. The substructuring reflects to some extent the European Y-chromosome gradients, with higher frequency of P*(xR1a) in the south-west and of R1a in the east. Heterogeneity in major founder groups, geographical isolation, severe epidemics, historical trading links and population movements may have led to population stratification and have most probably contributed to the observed regional differences in distribution of haplotypes within two of the major haplogroups."

                  Cut and paste URL below:

                  http://vetinari.sitesled.com/norway.pdf

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Incredible, compared to the data here I do not have exact match with any Norwegian N3. I have a distance between 3 and 4 mostly at DYS 389-1, only occational difference on DYS390 and not in the major haplotype group.

                    Noaide N3-1 N3-2 N3-3 N3-4 N3-5 N3-6
                    19 14 14 14 14 14 14 14
                    389-1 14 11 11 11 11 10 10
                    389-2 16 16 16 16 16 16 16
                    390 24 24 23 24 24 23 23
                    391 11 11 11 11 10 11 10
                    392 14 14 14 14 14 14 14
                    393 14 14 14 14 14 14 14
                    385I 11 11 11 10 11 11 11
                    385II 13 13 13 14 13 13 13
                    388 12 12 12 12 12 12 12

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Distribition of Norwegian N3:

                      N3-1 ca 18%
                      N3-2 ca 11%
                      N3-3 ca 6%
                      N3-4 ca 6%
                      N3-5 ca 6%
                      N3-6 ca 4%

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Great Article

                        Noaide
                        This seems to be a great article. I'll take time to read it tonight and come back with any comments.
                        As you and I have the same 10 allele values for the 10 markers you listed in the penultimate posting I guess my match values will be the same as yours.
                        Good hunting!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I believe there is no coincidence researcher seem to be using these specific markers and not all the Y-DNA 25 or 37 markers. 37 markers are good for genology but maybe less usefull for migration studies.

                          DYS389-2 f.ex is very stable and have not changed mutation rate across the different N subpopulations. DYS 389-1 however seem to be the most variable across the N3.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I can only find matches for our 12 Y-DNA in this paper concerning Finnish Y-DNA. Our 10 marker profile is identical to the biggest haplotype of N3 in Finland:

                            http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Finnish.pdf

                            This is very puzzling, do we belong to a very small minority within N3 in Norway since we dont even show up in a Norwegian Y-DNA survey also covering Finnmark area in Norway. I would at least expect to see a few matches. Could it be that the Saami in further soutwards in Norway/Sweden belong to another subclan within the Saami genepool? When I have a difference between 3 or 4 in FTDNA Etnic Origin and SNP Database and have that kind of distance it is usually Siberians and Mongols dominating the list, but here we have it within the borders of Norway.

                            Comparisment table:

                            Noaide N3-1 N3-2 N3-3 N3-4 N3-5 N3-6
                            19 0 0 0 0 0 0
                            389-1 3 3 3 3 4 4
                            389-2 0 0 0 0 0 0
                            390 0 1 0 0 1 1
                            391 0 0 0 1 0 1
                            392 0 0 0 0 0 0
                            393 0 0 0 0 0 0
                            385I 0 0 1 0 0 0
                            385II 0 0 -1 0 0 0
                            388 0 0 0 0 0 0
                            Diff 3 4 3 4 5 6
                            Last edited by Noaide; 16 December 2005, 03:12 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Supplementary data

                              Noaide.
                              Have you managed to access the Supplementary data as described in Appendix A (page 9)? Read it once, now I'll study it to get all the technical info!!

                              Comment

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