Native American Indian

[donniej]

Hello, I have very limited knowledge of DNA and all that is involved with it.
My main questions are
I purchased a DNA kit YDNA 37, for the purpose of Identifying what percentage of American Indian I have.
I do know I have some,but I do not know how much.
I was a bit naive,and thought after the test results were done,it would explain the % and names,however so far I have names that I never heard of.
Can someone please explain to me also what it means to have a unknown origin result?
I really need some help in understanding this process
Thank you D.B.

[Táltos]

An unknown origin result means your match does not know the actual origins of that particular line.

A YDNA test can only tell you one line of your ancestry, your direct paternal line. If your result is a Q-M3, or a C (and I forget which exact subclade), then you know your direct paternal line was Native American. If you tested your mtDNA and you are an A,B,C, or D (please keep in mind there are also specific subclades of these too such as A2 that are Native American specific. I can't remember all the exact ones off the top of my head. The other two are X2a and X2g that can also show if your direct maternal line was Native American.

There is also the autosomal test which can show you have this admixture. Keep in mind if you descend from an Eastern North American tribe it is more difficult to detect. This is because say your great great great grandparent might have already been mixed so the autosomal Dna might have recombined so much that it is no longer detected in you today. You can also explore if your Family Finder matches, if you choose to take the test also report Native American ancestry, the common ancestor might be the person who was NA. Good luck in your search.

[donniej]

Native American Indian Cont..

Thank you for your quick response to my questions, If I purchase the Family Finder DNA test will that show me my % of AM Indian? A cousin did her DNA test and confirmed her AM Indian ancestry. I know that my GGG Grand pop and GGG Grandmom were Cherokee/Blackfoot. Im trying to find out names/locations for my family. My GGG Grandpop was Brown, My GGG Grandmom was Shults (z) Her father was a Chief. Im gathering more Information as I can. I really do not understand any of the letters and numbers that are involved with this. My Haplogroup is R-M269 and R1b1a2
I thought when I did the YDNA-37 test it stated on the picture link "To find your Native American Origins Click here" so I did but now Im guessing I need a different test to confirm my AM Indian blood?

[madman]

R-M269 just means your direct male line came from europe it doesn't mean that any of those males where not native american you could be full blooded with a europe Haplogroup it only takes about 3 generations to be closed to full blooded.

The Family Finder is good for finding close or far away cousins out to 16th cousins but they have 0 I repeat zero native Americans from the united states.

Thank you for your quick response to my questions, If I purchase the Family Finder DNA test will that show me my % of AM Indian? A cousin did her DNA test and confirmed her AM Indian ancestry. I know that my GGG Grand pop and GGG Grandmom were Cherokee/Blackfoot. Im trying to find out names/locations for my family. My GGG Grandpop was Brown, My GGG Grandmom was Shults (z) Her father was a Chief. Im gathering more Information as I can. I really do not understand any of the letters and numbers that are involved with this. My Haplogroup is R-M269 and R1b1a2
I thought when I did the YDNA-37 test it stated on the picture link "To find your Native American Origins Click here" so I did but now Im guessing I need a different test to confirm my AM Indian blood?

[MMaddi]

Thank you for your quick response to my questions, If I purchase the Family Finder DNA test will that show me my % of AM Indian? A cousin did her DNA test and confirmed her AM Indian ancestry. I know that my GGG Grand pop and GGG Grandmom were Cherokee/Blackfoot. Im trying to find out names/locations for my family. My GGG Grandpop was Brown, My GGG Grandmom was Shults (z) Her father was a Chief. Im gathering more Information as I can. I really do not understand any of the letters and numbers that are involved with this. My Haplogroup is R-M269 and R1b1a2
I thought when I did the YDNA-37 test it stated on the picture link "To find your Native American Origins Click here" so I did but now Im guessing I need a different test to confirm my AM Indian blood?

Unfortunately, you clicked on the wrong link to order your test. As Táltos posted, the yDNA test only gives you results related to your strict paternal line - father, paternal grandfather, paternal grandfather's father, etc. At the level of ggg-grandparents the paternal line ancestor is just one of the 32 ancestors you have in that generation.

R1b1a2 is the most common haplogroup among European men. So, your R1b1a2 haplogroup tells you that your paternal line is European, not Native American. However, it says nothing about the many other lines in your tree. One or more of those other lines could have some Native American ancestry.

As Táltos also wrote, the test you want is the Family Finder test. That's the one that will estimate the percentages for the various ethnic/geographic ancestries you have. Caution - if your Native American ancestry is too distant or diluted by mixture with Europeans (as is common among Cherokee), Family Finder may not detect any Native American ancestry. The fact that your cousin's results showed Native American ancestry may or may not indicate that your test will find the same.

First of all, she may have Native American ancestry in a line she doesn't share with you - you only share one pair of grandparents and their ancestors. Also, DNA recombines in each generation randomly, so she may have received more DNA from the Native American ancestor than you did.

[Dust]

I have read that here at FTDNA, the Native American Sample is very small and largely taken from indigenous populations south of the border. So the test may not be as accurate as it will become over time as more American Indians test. In the Family Finder test you will likely find persons with American Indian dna that are related to you. By checking with them you may find a common ancestor.

Finally, blood, culture, community, language and place all play an important role in determining what an American Indian is. Culture is clearly the most important. Many people believe that if they have a drop of blood that they are Indian. They are not. They do have Indian heritage, but are not Indian. Indian is a cultural lifeway among a community of Indians, urban or rez, in a particular place. Many high blood quantum people have no American Indian culture or community and therefore they too would not be considered Indian by definition, they are assimilated. They would simply have Indian heritage.

Most people with American Indian blood who have grown up in an assimilated society with a world view of science have a hard time moving from a world view of science to a native world view of spirit. The two are very fundamentally different. Knowing one's ancestry however is a very rewarding endeavor.

[B52]

I have read that here at FTDNA, the Native American Sample is very small and largely taken from indigenous populations south of the border. So the test may not be as accurate as it will become over time as more American Indians test. In the Family Finder test you will likely find persons with American Indian dna that are related to you. By checking with them you may find a common ancestor.

Finally, blood, culture, community, language and place all play an important role in determining what an American Indian is. Culture is clearly the most important. Many people believe that if they have a drop of blood that they are Indian. They are not. They do have Indian heritage, but are not Indian. Indian is a cultural lifeway among a community of Indians, urban or rez, in a particular place. Many high blood quantum people have no American Indian culture or community and therefore they too would not be considered Indian by definition, they are assimilated. They would simply have Indian heritage.

Most people with American Indian blood who have grown up in an assimilated society with a world view of science have a hard time moving from a world view of science to a native world view of spirit. The two are very fundamentally different. Knowing one's ancestry however is a very rewarding endeavor.

Nowadays I wouldn't call no one an (American) Indian unless they grew up on a Indian reservation.

Everybody else, that didn't grow up on a reservation, I'd not expect they say they are Indian unless they look somewhat Indian and had Indian ancestry too. We all know what an apparently 100% European means when they are in a DNA / Genealogical forum and state they are Indian or Irish or English or German no need to pretend that they are trying to be some culture they are not.

It's rare to find any culture or ethnic group in the industrialized countries that you could say was any culture other than an industrialized culture and I wouldn't classify living on a reservation as another culture when their lifestyles are industrialized. It's simply a matter of political boundaries. Where they striving to live without modern conveniences like some Amish or Mennonites you could say differently. That's not to deny that their ancestors lived very different lives but I think I can safely can just about every modern resident of an industrialized culture would freak if they were sent off into the woods with a few meager hand-made tools and told to live a sustenance life style such as even my mother's family were still doing 75 years ago when she was a child.

If like me, and you are suppose to have Cherokee or other Indian ancestor from way back before 1800 you'll be very lucky if it was a direct maternal mtDNA or paternal yDNA ancestor.

So as stated Family Finder results in that case may or may not help.

What will help and what helped me was that a man was an exact match with my mtDNA and since my mtDNA is very rare (only 2 have tested so far) and that man has known and proven Amerindian ancestry from Oklahoma that means the 'old oral traditions' of having a Cherokee ancestor on my maternal grandmother's side is most likely true. You can't custom order that type of evidence. So you don't always have to have direct paternal Y-DNA or maternal mtDNA Amerindian ancestry for those tests to help. And you don't already need autosomal tests either. As admixed as Amerindians are a match with one them that has proven their Amerindian ancestry can be helpful.

[Armando]

Hello, I have very limited knowledge of DNA and all that is involved with it.
My main questions are
I purchased a DNA kit YDNA 37, for the purpose of Identifying what percentage of American Indian I have.
I do know I have some,but I do not know how much.
I was a bit naive,and thought after the test results were done,it would explain the % and names,however so far I have names that I never heard of.
Can someone please explain to me also what it means to have a unknown origin result?
I really need some help in understanding this process
Thank you D.B.

Thank you for your quick response to my questions, If I purchase the Family Finder DNA test will that show me my % of AM Indian? A cousin did her DNA test and confirmed her AM Indian ancestry. I know that my GGG Grand pop and GGG Grandmom were Cherokee/Blackfoot. Im trying to find out names/locations for my family. My GGG Grandpop was Brown, My GGG Grandmom was Shults (z) Her father was a Chief. Im gathering more Information as I can. I really do not understand any of the letters and numbers that are involved with this. My Haplogroup is R-M269 and R1b1a2
I thought when I did the YDNA-37 test it stated on the picture link "To find your Native American Origins Click here" so I did but now Im guessing I need a different test to confirm my AM Indian blood?

One of the few components of the Family Finder test that is close to dead on is the Native American component. It is a component that is shared by Native Americans throughout all of the Americas (North, Central, and South). The reference population used for Indians are Pima, Mayans, and three others for South America.

FTDNA incorrectly identifies Pima as being Central American and even though Mayans lived in Central America they also lived in North America. Almost all Mexicans have a component of Native American, anywhere from 9% to 60%, but not all of us are descended from Mayas, or even Aztecas, but FTDNA incorrectly identifies us as being either Maya or Pima because they are the only North American Indian populations that Mexicans can be compared to. Mexico is a part of North America. See the reference populations at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/ans...spx?id=22#1039

You should also be identified as being a certain percentage Native American with a Family Finder test but don't be surprised about being identified as either Pima or Mayan. It doesn't mean you descend from them. It just means you are very distantly related to them through common ancestors that existed some time in the past 12,000 years.

All other DNA tests and calculators will give you a similar Native American result, within about 2%, that Family Finder will give you. National Geographic Genographic 2.0 (Geno 2.0), 23andme, Dienekes' globe13, Ancestry.com and so on. Only Family Finder will give you a significant number of reliable matches. Ancestry.com will give you a large number of unreliable matches and 23andme.com will give you an insignificant number of matches that respond to requests.

By the way, a large number of Mexicans are also R1b because it is a major haplogroup of Spain, Portugal, and the Basque Country and a majority of the paternal lines in Mexico are of Spanish, Portuguese, and Basque origin.

[B52]

One of the few components of the Family Finder test that is close to dead on is the Native American component. It is a component that is shared by Native Americans throughout all of the Americas (North, Central, and South). The reference population used for Indians are Pima, Mayans, and three others for South America.

FTDNA incorrectly identifies Pima as being Central American and even though Mayans lived in Central America they also lived in North America. Almost all Mexicans have a component of Native American, anywhere from 9% to 60%, but not all of us are descended from Mayas, or even Aztecas, but FTDNA incorrectly identifies us as being either Maya or Pima because they are the only North American Indian populations that Mexicans can be compared to. Mexico is a part of North America. See the reference populations at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/ans...spx?id=22#1039

You should also be identified as being a certain percentage Native American with a Family Finder test but don't be surprised about being identified as either Pima or Mayan. It doesn't mean you descend from them. It just means you are very distantly related to them through common ancestors that existed some time in the past 12,000 years.

All other DNA tests and calculators will give you a similar Native American result, within about 2%, that Family Finder will give you. National Geographic Genographic 2.0 (Geno 2.0), 23andme, Dienekes' globe13, Ancestry.com and so on. Only Family Finder will give you a significant number of reliable matches. Ancestry.com will give you a large number of unreliable matches and 23andme.com will give you an insignificant number of matches that respond to requests.

By the way, a large number of Mexicans are also R1b because it is a major haplogroup of Spain, Portugal, and the Basque Country and a majority of the paternal lines in Mexico are of Spanish, Portuguese, and Basque origin.

I read that too before. Some people think black hair and a nice tan always equals 'non-European' which is plain silly.

And to my surprise I read an article that Neanderthal DNA responsible mostly for skin and hair makes up about 20% of modern European and East Asian DNA so that component must be present in Amerindian populations as well. Or not? The article didn't mention them.

[Dust]

Most of my knowledge of American Indians comes from being assimilated into the native culture for the last twenty years. In addition I have read the old writings af far back as possible, listened to the Elders speak around the late night fires, participated in the annual ceremonies, lived among a community of native peoples in a particular place, studied the language, raised and eaten native plants, used traditional decoctions and tinctures, and currently live as a Traditional Cherokee with a world view rooted in spirit.

My family lore is that we are Indian among others and I have discovered as a result of Family Finder that I do have relatives that lived in the time frame of 1800 and forward some of whose names are well known in Cherokee history, i.e., Ross, Jolly, Hicks, Benge, and Fields among others. The percentage of blood is low and distant and does not register at the 2% level. Yet, Bloody Fellow, (Esquaqua) the brother of Soquili (Horse) better known in the Taliwa language as Sequoiah wrote the following, "even should the habits and the customs of the Cherokee give place to the habits and customs of the Whites, or even should they themselves become white by intermarriage, not a drop of Indian blood would be lost, it would only be spread more widely."

Those of us who live in the world of Spirit know who we are. Cherokee's faced three hundred fifty years of genocide and the embers were widely scattered. Just now we are being called back to one fire. It is for that purpose that I seek to know my distant relatives whom I would otherwise not know because of the paper genocide practices of the Euro invaders. In time, I will find them and reunite with them. In the mean time I live my Traditional culture, and work to recover our ancient cultural practices. Each year more of the old culture is revealed. We are still here.

[B52]

Most of my knowledge of American Indians comes from being assimilated into the native culture for the last twenty years. In addition I have read the old writings af far back as possible, listened to the Elders speak around the late night fires, participated in the annual ceremonies, lived among a community of native peoples in a particular place, studied the language, raised and eaten native plants, used traditional decoctions and tinctures, and currently live as a Traditional Cherokee with a world view rooted in spirit.

My family lore is that we are Indian among others and I have discovered as a result of Family Finder that I do have relatives that lived in the time frame of 1800 and forward some of whose names are well known in Cherokee history, i.e., Ross, Jolly, Hicks, Benge, and Fields among others. The percentage of blood is low and distant and does not register at the 2% level. Yet, Bloody Fellow, (Esquaqua) the brother of Soquili (Horse) better known in the Taliwa language as Sequoiah wrote the following, "even should the habits and the customs of the Cherokee give place to the habits and customs of the Whites, or even should they themselves become white by intermarriage, not a drop of Indian blood would be lost, it would only be spread more widely."

Those of us who live in the world of Spirit know who we are. Cherokee's faced three hundred fifty years of genocide and the embers were widely scattered. Just now we are being called back to one fire. It is for that purpose that I seek to know my distant relatives whom I would otherwise not know because of the paper genocide practices of the Euro invaders. In time, I will find them and reunite with them. In the mean time I live my Traditional culture, and work to recover our ancient cultural practices. Each year more of the old culture is revealed. We are still here.

I always find it disconcerting when a modern human being attempts to use the past to incite hatred in the present.

Aren't the newspapers depressing enough for you? Hanging on to behavioral atrocities such as past war as a cultural crutch is abhorrent. And calling a war genocidal is like calling water wet.

Let's all just grovel in the misery and hurt of times we never actually experienced or actually suffered through ourselves so we can turn our noses up at modern members of those ethnic groups we disapprove of, although truthfully, 99% of them don't have a clue what you're on about, eh?

Anybody can go to the library and look up problems in the past in every part of the world. And throw some type of 'We were wronged!' pity party and waste the rest of their short time on Earth doing so. I'm not joining such groups. Have fun. Not! That Amerindian atrocities against each other were not recorded in the days before European colonialism doesn't make Amerindians some type of Spiritual high point in world cultural history. It makes them obscure. There is ample evidence the tribes couldn't make and break alliances and attack each other fast enough to eliminate competition from other tribes. And that was done even without your help.

[Rebekah Canada]

Stay Positive

Hi Guys,

Please stay on topic and be positive. We are here to talk DNA and our personal genealogy. :-)

[Dust]

No judgment here, just facts. American Indians see ourselves as survivors not victims. No pity party here. Sorry to ruffle your feathers. I would respond more fully but it is not my way to create problems. My thoughts were merely to express my path and my understandings hopefully to help others in their understanding, and not meant to be political. You are certainly welcome to your views and I will not judge them. I do think my thoughts were important in relating native culture and dna. That's all.

[Biblioteque]

Dust: You commented, "as more American Indians test". In your opinion, when might that happen? Have you tested? Are you encouraging other Native Americans to test? Are their religious beliefs the primary reason they do not test? Just curious.

[B52]

Frankly this modern attitude propagated by the popular media and Hollywood that the would be some type of Pax America or Pax Earth were it not for those darn Europeans is racist.

Even in my earlier post I said evidence of Amerindians tribes engaging in tribal warfare rather than specifically implicating their leadership, a vanishingly few that led their tribes to those wars of the total number of Amerindians that ever lived. The overwhelming majority that were innocent.

You want to guess of the hundreds of thousands of soldiers killed in the Civil War how many had ever even seen or heard of slavery or Africans before that war? Let alone owned slaves. Face facts: from a few thousand slave owners in the southern states and a few thousands slave traders in the northern states that could not reign in their greed, hundreds of thousands of complete innocents died.

Now I'm not going to go through on a case by case basis, as if I had the expertise, and point to the failure of leadership worldwide for the atrocities of the past but history books need to start being written with that truth in mind rather than using a broad brush to paint the victims as the perpetrators.