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E3b project cladograms

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  • #31
    Originally posted by EBurgess
    Victor, Thank you for the quick response.

    I looked at the microsatellite graph. you linked to in your post. Very interesting the E3b1 Alpha sub-group looks predominantly european. The other cluster looks almost exclusively East-African. So I suspect that 2 of the 4 regions (sub-clades?) will hold up even when additional markers are considered.
    Notwithstanding the multiple and historical migrations that we know of that took place in the Old World, there seems to be some correlation with the location and/or origin of the haplotypes listed, at least in the two larger groups that you noticed. But within the larger group there might be represented more than just one subclade in which it will be harder to draw a dividing line so to speak. Even in the smaller cluster I suspect that we have represented more than one subclade also. The SNP tests will show.

    So I believe that you will be able to identify some sub-clades from STRs. I just wonder as an individual haplotype if you are not a perfect match to the modal haplotype STRs how close do you have to be before considering an SNP test to confirm the results?
    Being close to the Modal is not necessarily a guarantee that a haplotype is within a particular subclade it only increases the likelihood. I still would encourage everyone to go ahead and make plans to have their SNP tested when possible to determine their subclade without a shadow of doubt. And if we get a "snip" result that breaks the pattern of the cladograms it means that we have to go back to square one and redefine the parameters of the whole process. Learning by trial and error!

    Also, how far back in time do we estimate these splits to have occured? Is there a way to measure given that SNPs are on average over 5000 years old? I am just trying to get my head around the practical implications.
    As far as E3b haplogroup is concerned, a quick glance at Cruciani's study shows for example that the TMRCA for M81 (the youngest subclade) is estimated at 5.6 ky; M78 on the other hand, is listed as 23.2 ky. old with each of its subclusters spliting at a subsequent age; Could not readily find M123's age.

    For example: I find a 23 on 25 match with another individual who is also R1b but does not share the same surname, was it convergence or is this guy more closely related to me than I would otherwise think? If STRs are that predictive with only 4 or 5 markers...

    BTW: I really appreciate your feedback
    IMO, a 23/25 non-surname match can not or should not be automatically discarded. You have to consider the geographical and historical context of the lineage and genealogy of those being compared. Surname continuity from generation to generation is not reliable in many cases, especially the farthest back we go in time. Conversely, at 25 markers it would certainly be more likely to find a case of convergence than at 37 if there is no geo-historical background in common. FTDNA's guidelines give a good explanation.

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    • #32
      Updated diagrams for E3b project!

      E3b Project Diagrams

      12-markers
      http://haplogen.orgfree.com/page12.html

      25-markers
      http://haplogen.orgfree.com/page25.html


      Regards,

      Victor

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      • #33
        Updated diagrams - Mar/1/2006

        Dear friends,

        Check out the new diagrams as of March the 1st., that include the latest SNP results.

        http://haplogen.orgfree.com/page25.html
        http://haplogen.orgfree.com/page37.html

        Regards,

        Victor

        p.s. Anyone from the project with SNP results not included in the diagrams, please let me know!

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        • #34
          Close

          Victor,

          You and I seem close on the 25 marker. Looks like I might come out E3b* as well. I think that's you anyway.

          Rick

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Rossi
            Victor,

            You and I seem close on the 25 marker. Looks like I might come out E3b* as well. I think that's you anyway.

            Rick
            I noticed that, too. But there's no sure way of knowing until you get your results back. As you can see the clustering pattern is broken by a couple of M123s; one near the E3b* and another near the E3b1.

            Victor

            p.s. Also, on the fluxus diagram your haplotype appears on a separate vector and closer to some E3b1s.
            Last edited by Victor; 2 March 2006, 09:53 PM.

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