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Haplogroup A outside of the Americas?

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  • Haplogroup A outside of the Americas?

    According to the Genographic Project, I turned out to be Haplogroup A.
    This came as a surprise, because this is a Native American Indian Haplogroup.
    My maternal grandmother's family came to Puerto Rico from the Canary Islands. All of them have the prototypical Guanche features of light hair and eyes. Her surname is a very common Canarian one times 4 due to her parents being first cousins and both having the surname from their father and mother. However, the surname of the earliest known matrilineal ancestor is different. My grandmother says that though it is theoretically possible that there may have been an Indian lady in the matrilineal line, it is extremely unlikely because she and her family knew absolutely nothing about it.

    I have been doing my research here, at Mitosearch, and at other sites such as the University of Uppsala's database. I have found out that although other modern Taino indians do have the haplogroup A, it was NOT found in the original Taino indians at the discovery. That the Yanomami, whom they were descended from, did NOT contain the haplogroup A. And that Indian remains found in the Dominican Republic did not contain it either. The Ciboney Indians in Cuba did have a little of it, but they came from Yucatan instead of South America. Some Indians were imported from Yucatan as well after the local Tainos had been nearly exterminated. The few remaining ones hid in some towns and locations where everyone knew they were Indians to this date. They are nowhere near the towns where my grandmother's family grew up- which were heavily populated by Canarians. There are a lot of Canarians in PR- hence many people in the rural towns do have the fair coloring of the Guanches. My grandmother finds the Indian from Yucatan hypothesis very unlikely for her family.

    What surprises me is that here in Family Tree DNA as well as the other sites I researched, there were multiple cases of Haplogroup A people found in Western Europe. Multiple cases were found in Spain- including the Canary Islands (both in historical graves and living people, as evidenced by the Uppsala University database). Now Spain I understand due to potential back migrations of descendants of colonists and Indians. However, some cases were found in Italy, Germany, Ireland, and Sweden- and none of these countries had colonies in the Americas! Family Tree DNA asks for country of origin- where ancestors came from, no USA unless they were Native Americans. My accounts give the location as Lares, Puerto Rico because that's where the earliest known matrilineal ancestor was born- as compared to my current location of Florida, USA. So I can imagine they are putting the correct countries of ancestry and not just where they moved to. Plus other people with Native American Indian haplogroups B, C, and D have been found in Europe- Germany, Slovakia, Norway, and multiple ones in Spain. Nothing has been mentioned to indicate they moved there from the Americas.

    My question is: could there have been possible that some people of Mitochondrial Haplogroup A migrated to Europe as compared to following the major migratory route? After all, A is an branch of macro haplogroup A, which also resulted in B (suspected to have come to the Americas via water and not Beringia), X (found in Europe and the Americas), and R (mother of the major European groups like H and U).

    I have read in various places about potential Caucasoid presence in the Americas before the discovery. There's the Kennewick man, the American Indian legends of a fair skinned deity returning, various fair skinned people in Maya paintings, etc. Also, the Guanches had pyramids that resembled those of the Mayas quite a bit. And that the Phoenicians may have visited the Americas even before Leif Eriksson. Could these be potential entry sites for Haplogroup A?

    Many of the respondents that had Indian blood (for lack of a better term) always knew it and even knew the exact relative. However, one other person did mention surprise, since her mother's family had also come from the Canary islands as far as she knew. Plus in the Guanche project a couple people have Native American haplogroups, though that could be through back migrations.

    Let me know anything you can find out. I am very curious about this. I know all about my father's side of the family, since they're very recent immigrants and my father lived in Spain for many years. But not so much about my mother other than general descendence due to their being in the Americas for a few more generations. Father is Majorcan Catalan with a surname common among Jewish converts (that of THE discoverer- Catalan form) as well as present in various place names in Catalunya; German ancestry on his mother's side (surname means German in Catalan, ties to royal family have been mentioned). Mother's father has the prototypical Mediterranean features and looks Middle Eastern- hence we speculate his family was Andalusian since that region has a lot of Arabic influence and sent many colonists to the Americas. Mother's mother is full Canarian as far as she knows- they all look Canarian and lived in the same towns. Nobody in the family has Indian features. We know people with Indian features who know their Indian ancestry: I even work in a place with many immigrants of Maya and Aztec ancestry. I have soft black fine wavy hair, medium brown eyes, a high nose bridge, light skin, and other Caucasoid features.

    Please let me know as much as you can.

  • #2
    It is highly unlikely that there was ancient migration of mtDNA types A, B, C or D into Europe from any direction, unless it represents East Asian women who accompanied their husbands from Siberia during the Mongol conquests or some such event--very, very unlikely. Much more likely that there was some back migration from the Caribbean to the Canaries, and also remember that the data posted by the FTDNA and Genographic sites is only as accurate as the claims of the people posting it. If family tradition says that someone's ancestors were Scandinavian, but one great great great grandmother in 1810 was a Cherokee woman, a person submitting her sample might put "Scandinavian" with an mtDNA that turns out to be Native American. Just a problem with erroneous data on the part of the participant in this very non-scientific sampling. This is obviously much more common with Y DNA, where a few percent of people in every generation are the result of "non-paternal" events, but recall also that adoptions occurred and sometimes were not mentioned; and that people arriving in America would occasionally claim family names or connections that were not real, for one reason or another. All of these scenarios are more likely than migration of A-D mtDNA women into Europe. As for your physical appearance, it says nothing; mtDNA does not contribute to it in any way, so after a few generations any Native American contribution to your ancestry would not be physically visible.

    Comment


    • #3
      Bottom line:

      When asked about my heritage, would it be necessary to mention that I am part Indian?

      Many people in the USA try very hard to get identified as part American Indian, even if it is just for practical reasons of getting a scholarship or stuff like that. My friend is 1/32 American Indian and she says that is not enough for her to say officially in legal stuff she is Native American, so while she can talk about her Indian relative proudly and display symbols she still cannot quite get identified as one. I know a lot of people who are part Indian and mention it to the four winds. I worked for the Census, and when someone was part Indian it was the first thing they mentioned. Yet nobody in the family knew a thing about this.

      Also, I'm quite confused because A was not found in the original Taino population. Would it be likelier that it was introduced by an Indian imported from Yucatan by the colonists after the local ones were nearly liquidated?

      It is only recently that I have realized that growing up where I did was not in vain. Back then I always felt like a stranger- perhaps due to my father's family's recent immigrancy I looked and sounded like them instead of the locals, perhaps due to the way I think and tastes I have. So please understand why this connection is ticking me a little more than the average person, who at best would be thrilled at worst would not care one bit and just take it for granted.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm sorry if I did this wrong, it's my first time on the forum.

        I get confused with all of the different people and which test to do,etc. My great grandfather was born in 1847 and I have a picture of him. His face shows great simularities to the native americans. I have never heard the family speek of being related however, my neighbor learned of her grandmother being full blooded Cherokee only just before her mother died, so I don't think that it is uncommon for people not knowing their relationship to the native americans.

        To explain the possition of my great grandfather is as follows: me--my father--my father's mother--her father. My grandmother is not living. My father is still alive but this is not my fathers direct line, this is through his mother. Who and how do I do the native american test.
        Last edited by Bludhoun; 28 November 2005, 06:10 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Eternitat,

          I’m guessing that haplogroup A migrated to Puerto Rico after the Taino and other Indians who were originally there. Maybe you had a great great grandparent who moved there from another Latin American country. I’m sure you know that your haplogroup A comes directly from your mother's female line (her mother's mother's mother, etc.) So, the rest of your family's history doesn't count there. Your mom’s father’s history is irrelevant to your haplogroup A. The focus is strictly on your mom’s female line. Do you know for a fact that your mom's mom was born in the Canary Islands? Do you have records? Someone at Family Tree DNA told me that when the Europeans first came to the America’s, European women were afraid to travel that far. So the men went alone and married Native American women. That’s why there is so much Native American mtDNA in Latin America. I think it’s something like 85 percent of the population. Despite it, there are a lot of people who think that all of their ancestors were full European. At some point people started to deny their Native American backgrounds because there was so much prejudice against Native Americans. Maybe that’s what happened in your case. That's why alot of people embrace their Native American heritage, because it was taken from them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bludhoun
            I'm sorry if I did this wrong, it's my first time on the forum.

            I get confused with all of the different people and which test to do,etc. My great grandfather was born in 1847 and I have a picture of him. His face shows great simularities to the native americans. I have never heard the family speek of being related however, my neighbor learned of her grandmother being full blooded Cherokee only just before her mother died, so I don't think that it is uncommon for people not knowing their relationship to the native americans.

            To explain the possition of my great grandfather is as follows: me--my father--my father's mother--her father. My grandmother is not living. My father is still alive but this is not my fathers direct line, this is through his mother. Who and how do I do the native american test.

            Bludhoun,

            Unfortunately, men cannot pass down mtDNA to their children. So your great grandfather would not have passed down his Native American haplogroup to your grandmother. Did your great grandfather have a sister? She would have passed down the Native mtDNA to her own daughters and they would have passed it down to their daughters. That would be where to get answers.

            Comment


            • #7
              My mom's mom was born PR and that is her identity. Her parents were first cousins. She knows that they are of Canarian ancestry- their surname (yup, x4) is extremely common in the Canary Island. Her family had been in PR for a few generations. However, nobody had mentioned an Indian ancestry to her ever, and she finds the hypothesis of someone coming from Yucatan suspicious. As far as she knows, NOBODY in her family came from a different Latin American country- all she knows is that her family's ancestors came to PR from the Canary Islands.

              I know that men migrate more than women do, hence the high percentage of Native American ancestry. I have no prejudice towards them. Can't really generalize about ALL American Indian cultures- some tribes had major inventions and discoveries, some were benign, some had human sacrifices or even ate people.

              If anything, mother's father would have been likelier to have Indian ancestry due to his darker coloring. But my mother's mother is a fair Guanche- though she does have brown eyes because her father did. Her mother and grandmother both had blue eyes, and so did one of her grandfathers (I have no clue which of her grandparents were siblings- all I know is that all 4 of them have the same surname!!!).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bludhoun
                I'm sorry if I did this wrong, it's my first time on the forum.

                I get confused with all of the different people and which test to do,etc. My great grandfather was born in 1847 and I have a picture of him. His face shows great simularities to the native americans. I have never heard the family speek of being related however, my neighbor learned of her grandmother being full blooded Cherokee only just before her mother died, so I don't think that it is uncommon for people not knowing their relationship to the native americans.

                To explain the possition of my great grandfather is as follows: me--my father--my father's mother--her father. My grandmother is not living. My father is still alive but this is not my fathers direct line, this is through his mother. Who and how do I do the native american test.
                Bludhoun,

                I forgot to mention that if your great grandfather got his Native DNA from his father, he would have passed it down through Y-DNA to his own son. The son would have passed it down to his own son and so on. That would be another way to find it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hello Eternitat,

                  Yours is an interesting situation and I won't presume to have the answer but here's my brief comment. There are several possible explanations:
                  • You got the wrong results from the lab.
                  • One of your female ancestors was taken to the Canaries from the Indies
                  • You have an Amerindian ancestor from Puerto Rico and your living relatives never knew it


                  About the first possibility I really don't know the lab accuracy or their error rate but maybe you could ask the folks at FTDNA.

                  Next, there are historical records that document Native Americans being taken to the Old World in colonial times, so it is possible that your female ancestor came again to the New World from the Canary Islands. You'd have to follow the paper trail and hope to find your ancestors for as many generations as possible.

                  Finally, the fact that nobody told your mother or grandmother about a possible NA ancestor does not exclude that possibility. Neither having a common Canary Island surname. Even the physical traits of your relatives, like eye, hair or skin color are not necessarily correlated to haplogroup. As you know genotype does not have a phenotype.

                  And contrary to what you mentioned that haplogroup A was absent from the Caribean Islands, I found information that says the opposite. As a single example read the following quote and do your own Google search.

                  The distribution of these five haplogroups in Puerto Rico was the following: Of the 489 samples of indigenous origin, 255 (52.!%) belonged to haplogroup A, 175 (35.8%) to haplogroup C, 42 (8.6%) to haplogroup B, 17 (3.5%) to haplogroup D, and zero to haplogroup X. This distribution structured around two haplogroups, specifically haplogroups A and C, which constitutes 88% of the indigenous samples, is typical of the New World tribes.
                  taken from : http://www.kacike.org/MartinezEnglish.html
                  Other links: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...08/ai_n8981492

                  In summary, my recommendation is to follow the paper trail and build up a solid genealogy. That's the only chance of solving this enigma. Of course you have the option of retesting your DNA but maybe you should leave that until you have documented your maternal lineage beyond a reasonable doubt.

                  Best of luck!
                  Victor

                  p.s. Have you tried getting in touch with Dra. Oquendo from the Puerto Rican DNA Project?
                  I understand that they have a DNA database and a lot of historical records.
                  http://proyectosadnhispanos.bravehos...toADNPRes.html



                  Originally posted by Eternitat
                  My mom's mom was born PR and that is her identity. Her parents were first cousins. She knows that they are of Canarian ancestry- their surname (yup, x4) is extremely common in the Canary Island. Her family had been in PR for a few generations. However, nobody had mentioned an Indian ancestry to her ever, and she finds the hypothesis of someone coming from Yucatan suspicious. As far as she knows, NOBODY in her family came from a different Latin American country- all she knows is that her family's ancestors came to PR from the Canary Islands.

                  I know that men migrate more than women do, hence the high percentage of Native American ancestry. I have no prejudice towards them. Can't really generalize about ALL American Indian cultures- some tribes had major inventions and discoveries, some were benign, some had human sacrifices or even ate people.

                  If anything, mother's father would have been likelier to have Indian ancestry due to his darker coloring. But my mother's mother is a fair Guanche- though she does have brown eyes because her father did. Her mother and grandmother both had blue eyes, and so did one of her grandfathers (I have no clue which of her grandparents were siblings- all I know is that all 4 of them have the same surname!!!).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I did read that paper.

                    However, I have also read various stating that Haplogroup A was absent from historical Indian remains in the indies populated by Tainos, as well as absent in the Yanomami, who were their ancestors in South America where they came to the Antilles from.

                    Hence I was confused.

                    It is quite possible that a female ancestor was taken from the colonies (anywhere that had Haplogroup A) to the Canaries, and then her descendant came to the island.

                    I doubt there would be a paper trail. And if there were, I do not know where to find it. My grandmother was told about Canarian ancestry orally.

                    She did mention the possibility of error. But I would think the Genographic Project would be as reliable as it could be. It even listed my mutations as corresponding to Haplogroup A.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Eternitat, what's your sequence?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1. 16111T
                        2. 16223T
                        3. 16290T
                        4. 16319A
                        5. 16362C

                        Those are the mutations. Otherwise I guess it matches the CRS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Unfortunately, there is nothing specific here, it's "consensus" type of the American As. So, all private changes you have are located outside hvs1 region.
                          Last edited by vraatyah; 29 November 2005, 08:59 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yup, I looked for my mutations in the Uppsala U. website, and it did resolve to that Canarian person in the Canary Islands. Probably a back migration, but who knows.

                            What is the possibility of error for Genographic? My grandmother was not very convinced, especially when I mentioned that Haplogroup A has to have come from Yucatan. Although a back migration from someone who colonized another country to the Canary Islands, which resulted in my grandmother's ancestor, is not totally off the wall.

                            I wish that Sykes would do an Aiyana story. Closest to hers would be Xenia's because Haplogroup A is an N offshoot just like X.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              >Yup, I looked for my mutations in the Uppsala U. website, and it did resolve to that Canarian person in the Canary Islands

                              I have about 200 exact matches for you even outside Canary )

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