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  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    There are 834 men at ysearch with the 12 markers that were found in the Lichtenstein man from 3000 years ago.That doesnt mean that they are descended from him.It is most likely that he was L48 and that still doesnt mean that they are all descended from him.
    So having the same markers and the same SNP shows a relationship but it doesnt mean descendant.
    The same can be said of any other group like M222 etc.
    Who was using 12 markers to claim descent?

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  • 1798
    replied
    There are 834 men at ysearch with the 12 markers that were found in the Lichtenstein man from 3000 years ago.That doesnt mean that they are descended from him.It is most likely that he was L48 and that still doesnt mean that they are all descended from him.
    So having the same markers and the same SNP shows a relationship but it doesnt mean descendant.
    The same can be said of any other group like M222 etc.
    Last edited by 1798; 27 November 2013, 12:36 PM.

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  • spruithean
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    I can very easily see how one man, under the right set of circumstances, could be the single y-dna progenitor of millions of other men, especially given enough time. If that man was a tribal king or chief with access to numerous wives, concubines, etc., and his sons were similarly placed as elite, with access to numerous wives, etc., it would not take long for a tremendous expansion of that single y-dna lineage to take place, especially if at least some of those sons spread out and advanced into new territory, accompanied by their extended families.
    Exactly what I was thinking. An example of a king or chief with high status and a large amount of descendants would be someone like Genghis Khan.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    I can very easily see how one man, under the right set of circumstances, could be the single y-dna progenitor of millions of other men, especially given enough time. If that man was a tribal king or chief with access to numerous wives, concubines, etc., and his sons were similarly placed as elite, with access to numerous wives, etc., it would not take long for a tremendous expansion of that single y-dna lineage to take place, especially if at least some of those sons spread out and advanced into new territory, accompanied by their extended families.

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  • EastAnglian
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I don't believe it that one man 4000 years ago is the ancestor of 300 million R1b men today. It may work out on computer but I live in the real world.
    You have to take into account the growth in human knowledge, that's when the European population truly started to increase. Infant mortality started to decrease as sanitation and medical knowledge increased in Europe.

    I don't normally quote wiki but this is quite a good set of facts:

    During the European Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, the life expectancy of children increased dramatically.[48] The percentage of the children born in London who died before the age of five decreased from 74.5% in 1730–1749 to 31.8% in 1810–1829.[49][50] Between 1700 and 1900, Europe’s population increased from about 100 million to over 400 million.[51] Altogether, the areas of European settlement comprised 36% of the world's population in 1900.[52]

    Population growth in the West became more rapid after the introduction of compulsory vaccination and improvements in medicine and sanitation.[53] As living conditions and health care improved during the 19th century, the United Kingdom's population doubled every fifty years.[54] By 1801, the population of England had grown to 8.3 million, and by 1901 it had reached 30.5 million; the population of the United Kingdom reached 60 million in 2006.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    We do not know for sure, but probably in western Asia or far eastern Europe.
    I don't believe it that one man 4000 years ago is the ancestor of 300 million R1b men today. It may work out on computer but I live in the real world.

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  • D.Clade
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    That paper is CSI-5000 BC
    Maybe the dates are early but it looks a little crazy towards the end of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture.
    A simple Wiki overview: The Talheim Death Pit
    This study, Mass cannibalism in the Linear Pottery Culture at Herxheimsite has pictures. Wikipedia Herxheim (archaeological site)
    Looks like LBK on LBK warfare.
    Beating ploughshares back into swords: warfare in the Linearbandkeramik
    The Schletz-Asparn site near Vienna looks very violent. The remains from Schletz-Asparn and Talheim, as well as numerous other sites, indicatebeyond a doubt that, much of the time, these enemies came from other LBK villages.The crushing blows to the head that killed most individuals at these sites were inflicted by LBK-style axes and adzes.
    So we have ritualistic cannibalism and village warfare. A new culture (and haplogroups?) may have been able to exploit that.
    Last edited by D.Clade; 26 November 2013, 09:34 PM.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Of course, those remains are a trifle old, but they do show that there were conflicts and massacres during the Neolithic in Europe.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by D.Clade View Post
    Thanks Stevo!
    Modeling the contrasting Neolithic male lineage expansions in Europe and Africa
    Michael J Sikora, Vincenza Colonna, Yali Xue and Chris Tyler-Smith
    Having the downstream y-dna R1b associated with mtDNA H could put a different spin on the "R1b killed all the men" scenarios. Has anybody come across anything that would suggest a pandemic as R1b & H expanded into Europe? Perhaps they could have been infectious disease carriers causing a population collapse allowing new haplogroups to replace the older ones. New of different livestock could cause a pandemic too. Ireland's relative isolation may have made that population the most susceptible to an infectious disease outbreak. Just asking.
    Well, here is an interesting article:

    NEOLITHIC MASSACRES: LOCAL SKIRMISHES OR GENERAL WARFARE IN EUROPE?

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Alright then, where was this one R1b man born ?
    We do not know for sure, but probably in western Asia or far eastern Europe.

    . . . in Europe, the R1b lineage experienced an extremely rapid and extensive increase as soon as it entered the continent, expanding more than a thousandfold in a few generations.

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  • D.Clade
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Check this new report out for what it says about the rapid expansion of y-dna R1b and mtDNA H at about the same time, during the Neolithic Period.
    Thanks Stevo!
    Modeling the contrasting Neolithic male lineage expansions in Europe and Africa
    Michael J Sikora, Vincenza Colonna, Yali Xue and Chris Tyler-Smith
    These suggest that in Europe, the R1b lineage experienced an extremely rapid and extensive increase as soon as it entered the continent, expanding more than a thousandfold in a few generations.
    Having the downstream y-dna R1b associated with mtDNA H could put a different spin on the "R1b killed all the men" scenarios. Has anybody come across anything that would suggest a pandemic as R1b & H expanded into Europe? Perhaps they could have been infectious disease carriers causing a population collapse allowing new haplogroups to replace the older ones. New of different livestock could cause a pandemic too. Ireland's relative isolation may have made that population the most susceptible to an infectious disease outbreak. Just asking.
    Last edited by D.Clade; 26 November 2013, 05:04 PM.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Check this new report out for what it says about the rapid expansion of y-dna R1b and mtDNA H at about the same time, during the Neolithic Period.
    Alright then, where was this one R1b man born ?
    Last edited by 1798; 26 November 2013, 04:03 PM.

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  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Check this new report out for what it says about the rapid expansion of y-dna R1b and mtDNA H at about the same time, during the Neolithic Period.
    Thanks Stevo!

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by Rebekah Canada View Post
    For a similar shift in the European mtDNA (especially mtDNA H) paradigm, see the paper from earlier this year, Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23612305
    It is slow, but academia is coming around to my way of thinking on H. :-)
    Check this new report out for what it says about the rapid expansion of y-dna R1b and mtDNA H at about the same time, during the Neolithic Period.

    If we had used the more likely 4 to 5 KYA estimate of the R1b TMRCA from the rho statistic [18], the expansion in the current model would have been placed close to this time, well within the Neolithic and, interestingly, also close to the time of establishment of the major European mtDNA haplogroup, H, approximately 6 KYA [7,8]. The rapidity of the R1b expansion and the large increase in population size are most consistent with migration and population replacement, issues debated by archaeologists but favored by the aDNA data [5-9].

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  • Rebekah Canada
    replied
    mtDNA Comparable

    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Dr. Wells is moving in Dr. Hammer's direction; he just hasn't quite arrived yet. Not too long ago, Wells and the Geno Project site had R1b re-populating the Isles nearly 10,000 years ago, soon after the LGM, which it supposedly spent holed up in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge.

    If he is now saying 5,000-2500 BC, that represents quite a shift forward in time. And notice the size of that window: as recently as 2500 BC, which is Bronze Age and corresponds to the arrival in the Isles of the Beaker Folk.
    For a similar shift in the European mtDNA (especially mtDNA H) paradigm, see the paper from earlier this year, Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23612305
    It is slow, but academia is coming around to my way of thinking on H. :-)

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