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Significant lack of close Turner matches

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  • Significant lack of close Turner matches

    In spite of about 200 Turners in the Turner Ydna database, I (and my known cousin) have so few - even close - matches with other Turners. But I find a lot of Campbells, Morrisons, Buchanans, and other Scot names instead. Other than the fact that my line is Scottish/Irish, which we pretty well already knew, what am I to make of this. In particular the significant lack of Turners. Other than the probability of a name change somewhere, is there something else I should explore?

    Cheers
    Warren

  • #2
    Originally posted by WHTurner
    In spite of about 200 Turners in the Turner Ydna database, I (and my known cousin) have so few - even close - matches with other Turners. But I find a lot of Campbells, Morrisons, Buchanans, and other Scot names instead. Other than the fact that my line is Scottish/Irish, which we pretty well already knew, what am I to make of this. In particular the significant lack of Turners. Other than the probability of a name change somewhere, is there something else I should explore?

    Cheers
    Warren

    why do we have lines?
    because at one point the king needed surnames to have his taxmen keep records. so people choose names based on nouns [wall] places [field] occupations [smithy] being the son of [jackson] colors [black] ect

    each town didnt make sure their blacks were related to the next towns
    that makes two lines . the exception to this is if the two towns share a very common ydna string. eventually lines formed .

    maybe your line was distant from the others maybe an adoption happened
    and then theirs infidelity. i have xxxx in a project who all match closely with the xxxy. one has a ton of matches with beaties and all variants
    he must have 10 25+matches but he matches all the beatties . which tells me the beatty thing came from him to the beatties.otherwise he wouldnt match project members of the same surname. somewhere in the middle of the ancester thing is the confusion

    this is a reason you need to pay attention to who you actually match 12/12
    and higher

    maybe his xxxx took his middle name beatie [mothers] when he had to run from govt forces not uncommon in scotland and ireland

    hope this helps
    Last edited by Jim Denning; 26 October 2005, 12:18 PM.

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    • #3
      According to the office of national statistics for England, Wales and the Isle of Mann in September 2002.

      The Turner surname is ranked as the 27th most frequent (SMITH being number 1) out of 270, 000 surnames and 54 million people. That is a HUGE number of Turners. Based on this fact alone it is not at all surprising that you will have a very wide varitey of genetic makeup. Conversely rare and unique surnames should have a very high percentage of matches.

      I guess you need to narrow down the search area or get more participants, but eventually you should find other matches with Turners. Of the Scots you do match, do you have a geographic area common to them?

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      • #4
        Turner Scot Match

        Yes - it appears that North East Scotland contains the Scot names which are closest. For example FTDNA report for Y37 lists 9 "Matches" but no Turners other than a cousin we knew from prior research. Considering that there are something on the order of 200 Turner project test results, that alone is peculiar.The "Matches" were 3 Morrisons, one Jamieson, a Forbes, a Wright, and a Taylor. At the 25 marker level there were 66 Scot names, all but 3 non-Turners.

        Cheers
        Warren

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        • #5
          I take it you have not traced your own line back to the UK and were looking for a target area to look in.

          Are the 9 matches to different haplotypes in your TURNER project or do they cluster around one? Excluding non-paternity events it is still not surprising to see a wide variety of haplotypes given the popularity of the name. There are 131 000 Turners in the UK in 2002. People with the names SMITH, JONES and WILLIAMS are in the same boat. There is the possibility that your particular TURNER haplotype died out in the UK, and of course the possibility of a non-paternity (correct-term?) event. I would still not give up hope, have you found Turners to test in North East Scotland?

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          • #6
            All of my matches at the 25 or 37 level are R1b, and the Turner DNA test pool is predominately Scottish or Scot-Irish and also R1b. Our demographics and associations back to 1790 make it almost certain that my line is also Scot or Scot-Irish. But 2 of us (my cousin from 1790 and I) do not fit DNA wise with the other Turners tested. We have more matches with Morrisons and others than Turners.
            The large number of non-Turner close matches point to North-East Scotland as a potential location for research.

            Cheers
            Warren

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            • #7
              Well it is hard to ignore 9 37-marker matches to a haplotype even if they do belong to other surnames. I recall reading somewhere that scottish clan names were often adopted by other genetically distinct families when they joined the clan.

              I looked at your TURNER DNA results page and was quite impressed with the number of 37-marker participants you have. I could not however pinpoint which one of the entries represents you and your cousin.

              Am I correct in assuming that you and your cousin from 1790 are a link that is still in the US? Of the 3 Morrison matches are some closer? This may help you triangulate a time and place, especially when you look at how these Morrison's match others.

              In the Burgess DNA project we are also finding a large number of unique haplotypes. I only match one other person so far, my fourth cousin back to 1785 approx. The Problem for us is a lack of participation from the UK.

              I have more than a passing interest in the Turner family as my ancestor John Burgess had as a witness at his wedding in Bakewell a John Turner. I had hopes of finding a link to this turner to take me back another generation.


              Sorry to go off topic!

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              • #8
                The last time I looked, my cousins results had not been posted. If you are interested, I can send you our comparisons.
                As far as matching with different surnames, I am sure that there is a lot the "DNA detective"s don't know yet - we are part of the experiment which is in the early stages.
                For example, my cousins line stems from 1790 when John Jr was born; my line from 1794 when his brother Hugh was born. But we are one GD apart. One mutation in 200+ years. But other markers are also noted as having frequent mutations. what if 2, 3, or even 4 had also mutated. The probability is not the same as throwing 3 or 4 heads in a row, but you can see the potential. And I have not seen any mention of whether these mutations move in a regular manner - ie increasing from 13 to 14 to 15 or some regular progression.
                Of course, the experts may know, but I do not.

                Cheers
                Warren
                Last edited by WHTurner; 28 October 2005, 09:16 PM.

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                • #9
                  we are part of the experiment which is in the early stages
                  I agree and as more data pours in the better refinement we will have. If people in the middle ages really stayed put the way the history books tell us then we should see homelands emerge for many surnames including those like yours and mine that have multiple origins. If we get enough data we can even start to track relationships between different surnames in a given geographic area.

                  I still think the matches you are looking for are still out there and it is just a matter of time.

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