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Isle of Jura and Norse Ydna

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  • Isle of Jura and Norse Ydna

    I have confirmed my family coming from Jura, Scotland immigrating to North Carolina and to the Midwest where I live now. My Ydna is I1d1 P109+. Other than viking norse invaders what other people would of given me this norse haplogroup coming from that part of Scotland?

  • #2
    Originally posted by wilson View Post
    I have confirmed my family coming from Jura, Scotland immigrating to North Carolina and to the Midwest where I live now. My Ydna is I1d1 P109+. Other than viking norse invaders what other people would of given me this norse haplogroup coming from that part of Scotland?
    I1 haplotype YDNA is very specific to Nordic populations and people descended from them. Since it is unlikely that the Isle of Jura was settled by people who had received I1 Y-DNA from more roundabout sources (Angles/Saxons/Normans); I think it is safe for you to assume that your oldest direct paternal male ancestor was in fact of Scandinavian or Northern Germanic heritage.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by wilson View Post
      I have confirmed my family coming from Jura, Scotland immigrating to North Carolina and to the Midwest where I live now. My Ydna is I1d1 P109+. Other than viking norse invaders what other people would of given me this norse haplogroup coming from that part of Scotland?
      In all likelihood, no one. The Isle of Jura was heavily influenced by Norse populations. Heck, the very name Jura is Norse for Deer or Island of the Deer.

      Congratulations on resolving that question!

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      • #4
        Thank for the quick reply guys. My biological surname is Clark and descended from an Alexander Clark from Jura. Finding out this Viking history has really interested me. Even though the YDNA is only one line my autosomal Dna from Gedmatch even shows mosty Germatic stock. So that being said, now I am very interested and curious on my Norse ancestors

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        • #5
          Isle of Jura

          I'm not familiar with old Norse only a smattering of Norwegian and Icelandic but Jura sounds French to me. There are a couple of hypothetic suggestions on Wikipedia listed too with hints that it may or may not be an old Norse name. Keep in mind the Jura Mountains on the French-Swiss border and the long French presence in England and Scotland not to mention Norse presence in France.

          This is an interesting page but as you read the list of derivations of island names you can tell they are guessing and in some cases outright inventing origins of those names.

          e.g.:
          a. a Greek name is listed but Jura as possible French origin is ignored despite the presence of the French in Scotland and absence of the Greeks
          b. Lewis as pre-Celtic or Norsk ignoring the anglicised Welsh Lewis surname and that many lands were feudally owned
          c. ignoring that the land were heavily grazed by sheep when checking into the origin of the name of the Isle of Ewe

          The researchers ignore that many of the isles could have been renamed in more modern times as new settlers, absence of maps documenting the names, and events like the highland clearances cleared the isles of people that knew the names and history of the isles.

          They also ignore that sparsely and unpopulated areas probably weren't given a name at all. I never looked into it but it would be interesting to see if all of the '10,000 Islands' off the coast of southwest Florida have been given names given a lot of them are transient mangrove swamps.


          Anyway, the article:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrides

          I only made it far as Edinburgh
          Last edited by B52; 30 April 2013, 10:42 PM.

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          • #6
            Jura= deer and Isle of Man

            Whether you want to believe that Jura is a Scandanavian word or not, the outer islands were ruled by the Norse when they controlled the Isle of Man. So, the Island would have been under Norse rule at one time (and most likely where the name came from).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
              Whether you want to believe that Jura is a Scandanavian word or not, the outer islands were ruled by the Norse when they controlled the Isle of Man. So, the Island would have been under Norse rule at one time (and most likely where the name came from).
              Where do I say they island were not ever ruled by the Norse?

              Jura = swore (French)

              Mary, Queen of Scots and Robert the Bruce and many others attest to a French influence in Scotland and of course England.

              Sounds like you desire a return of the islands to Norse rule.

              I merely pointed out the this strange ideal the these islands would have all kept their Celtic or Norse names despite some of them never having been populated or named at all and others having been depopulated in the clearing long ago.

              It's a fallacy to suggest that all the names these islands are known by today must have been old Norse or Keltic in origin when English has been the primary language and the rulers of these islands since King James I.

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              • #8
                Here is one opinion from an interesting website on the history of Jura:

                "The Hebrides were assaulted by the Vikings at Iona in 795, and perhaps there was no more apt place to strike first, as Columba had tried to unify the peoples of the islands and mainlands. While there are no specific relations of Viking activities on Jura, there are various oral stories that concern 'lost battles', particularly around Inver and Ardfin. While there has yet to be found evidence of Viking or Norse habitations on Jura, the area around Sannaig and Port na Birlinne are known to have been the headquarters of the local followers of the Norse that controlled the Inner Hebrides from the Isle of Man; the followers of Somerled would use these same sites. There is ample proof of Viking presence in Jura's place names as sites such as Liundale, Sannaig and Rainberg Mor and Rainberg Beag, to name a few. (However, the great misconception is that the island of Jura itself is "almost certainly derived from the Norse Dy Oer - pronounced Joora and meaning, "Deer Island"", is certainly incorrect. First, it ignores proper Gaelic pronunciation and furthermore, the name 'Jura' is from an earlier proto-language that was spread across Europe. In fact, the place name Jura may be found from France to Bulgaria and Albania. The Gaelic word 'diura' itself means 'tough, or durable'.)" http://www.theisleofjura.co.uk/index...0Part%201.html

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                • #9
                  Jura

                  Originally posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
                  Here is one opinion from an interesting website on the history of Jura:

                  "The Hebrides were assaulted by the Vikings at Iona in 795, and perhaps there was no more apt place to strike first, as Columba had tried to unify the peoples of the islands and mainlands. While there are no specific relations of Viking activities on Jura, there are various oral stories that concern 'lost battles', particularly around Inver and Ardfin. While there has yet to be found evidence of Viking or Norse habitations on Jura, the area around Sannaig and Port na Birlinne are known to have been the headquarters of the local followers of the Norse that controlled the Inner Hebrides from the Isle of Man; the followers of Somerled would use these same sites. There is ample proof of Viking presence in Jura's place names as sites such as Liundale, Sannaig and Rainberg Mor and Rainberg Beag, to name a few. (However, the great misconception is that the island of Jura itself is "almost certainly derived from the Norse Dy Oer - pronounced Joora and meaning, "Deer Island"", is certainly incorrect. First, it ignores proper Gaelic pronunciation and furthermore, the name 'Jura' is from an earlier proto-language that was spread across Europe. In fact, the place name Jura may be found from France to Bulgaria and Albania. The Gaelic word 'diura' itself means 'tough, or durable'.)" http://www.theisleofjura.co.uk/index...0Part%201.html
                  Very interesting. Although to my very amateur eyes Liundale, Sannaig and Rainberg Mor and Rainberg Beag look like hybrized Celt-Norse names rather than strictly one or the other.

                  And although Jura is 'swore' in French (don't know but a few French words, I got that from, ahem Google Translate) I vaguely remember a story that the Jura Mountains name derives from a language and time long before French.

                  So I looked in Wikipedia and it is now identified as a proto-Celtic name meaning 'forest':

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jura_Mountains

                  Now to me that much more plausible then the gymnastics used to change old Norse Dy Oer into Jura. I'm not being obstinate: to me Jarvik to York is believable even in my own thick tongue, but the Deer Island story is not.

                  I do have Polish friends whose last name contains Dz but comes it out as J from my English speaking tongue.
                  Last edited by B52; 1 May 2013, 02:44 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Admittedly, I do not speak Norse, but culled that info from here:

                    http://www.jurainfo.com/

                    Also knowing the history of Scotland and the Isle of Man, as well as Ireland and England, it makes complete sense that there was a Scandinavian influence on Jura (bearing in mind that the "J" in latin was pronounced like a "Y"- and perhaps the island's name was transcribed phonetically by the Romans), your haplogroup only substantiates this.

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                    • #11
                      I took three years of Latin. There was no equivalent to the modern English 'j' or 'dzh' sound (I think that's some international phonetic thing)--although some close modern descendants of Latin do, like French and Italian.

                      The written form 'j' does sometimes appear in Medieval manuscripts, but the universal consensus is that it was pronounced either as the modern English 'i' or 'y'. No 'dzh' sound at all.

                      It makes a little more intuitive sense to me that that 'Jura' would have come about as a Gaelic speaker's interpretation of 'Dyor Oy', or whatever the Old Norse for 'Deer Island' would have been. In almost all forms of Gaelic, 'D', followed by a slender vowel, such as an 'e' or an 'i'--perhaps rendered here by a 'y'--is normally pronunced like the English letter 'j'.

                      Yes, you do get some eccentric Munster dialects that insist on pronouncing it as a hard dental, but those dialects are the clear minority.

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                      • #12
                        Sorry I have no desire for the Norse to be ruling the Islands again. Was merely pointing out a fact.

                        And if several sites including the one written by the tourist board on Jura say that the Island itself comes from Old Norse for Deer (Dyr-a) I am not going to contradict them because I do not know Old Norse.

                        And I am assuming no one else here does either?

                        I really don't know what all the fuss is about. It is an island that was once ruled by the Norse, thusly named, and is currently ruled by Scotland.

                        It is quite beautiful and I would LOVE to visit there someday.

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                        • #13
                          Isle of Jura

                          Hey, folks....
                          Thought I'd throw in my 10 cents worth........my mother, her brothers, & parents were from Aberdeen, but my grandmother's people were from Islay, which is next to Jura. After being tested several tears ago, I found to my surprise that recent ancestral origin was Ireland, with VERY strong influence from Norway. Had NEVER heard anything about either, but after reading up on the Western Isles, etc., naturally saw these people had come from Ireland, originally, and that these islands were ruled by the Norse for over 400 years, so I'm quite pleased about it all, and look forward to visiting Islay, hopefully, next year.

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                          • #14
                            I am so jealous. It looks so absolutely beautiful. I don't know that I could live there but I could definitely spend my summers there if I had the $$$$. Sigh.







                            QUOTE=Diana;362132]Hey, folks....
                            Thought I'd throw in my 10 cents worth........my mother, her brothers, & parents were from Aberdeen, but my grandmother's people were from Islay, which is next to Jura. After being tested several tears ago, I found to my surprise that recent ancestral origin was Ireland, with VERY strong influence from Norway. Had NEVER heard anything about either, but after reading up on the Western Isles, etc., naturally saw these people had come from Ireland, originally, and that these islands were ruled by the Norse for over 400 years, so I'm quite pleased about it all, and look forward to visiting Islay, hopefully, next year.[/QUOTE]

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