Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lithuania surnames

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    I am not sure where you got that impression. I only mentioned Yiddish in passing.I never suggested a language problem where someone who is Hungarian in origin could not speak Polish or Lithuanian. Given the location in Slovakia that I mentioned, it would be likely that the person spoke some Polish. People in that region often spoke two or three languages. It is possible that there might be a Jewish connection but I was hardly certain of it. If it is not clear, my guess is that the surname is Christian Hungarian.
    Some months ago, I mentioned to 1796 that the surname Krakaukas could suggest origins in Krakow where there once was a significant Jewish population. I never thought that Mutyar suggested Jewish origins, although that possibility cannot be ruled out.

    Comment


    • #17
      I assumed you thought she (the woman in question) was Jewish from your Yiddish remark.

      My response about the language issue and reference to two people from different countries marrying had to do with her question about whether a person from Lithuania or Poland might marry someone from Hungary and whether that was common. It was not directed at you.

      And although 1796 does not know where her Jewish roots come from, the name Mutyar (if it is correct spelling, etc) does not sound or look Jewish. And the name Josephine is also not traditionally a Jewish name. But who knows?

      In any case, now that she has the name I would suggest trying to find out more information if she can. Maybe she can find out where the majority of the other Mutyar's in Hungary come from- a small village? Or just the one or two you mentioned from Ancestry.

      Interestingly, I think Hungarians have some Turkish and Persian ancestry in their mix if I am not mistaken. Didn't you say that your admixture tests showed some Turkish ancestry?

      It will be interesting to see what your research comes up with!






      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
      Some months ago, I mentioned to 1796 that the surname Krakaukas could suggest origins in Krakow where there once was a significant Jewish population. I never thought that Mutyar suggested Jewish origins, although that possibility cannot be ruled out.

      Comment


      • #18
        When I think about it, Mutyar would be pretty similar to the way Magyar is actually pronounced since the G has more of a D or T sound. But that doesn't mean it couldn't mean something else in Hungarian.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by khuebner View Post
          When I think about it, Mutyar would be pretty similar to the way Magyar is actually pronounced since the G has more of a D or T sound. But that doesn't mean it couldn't mean something else in Hungarian.
          Yes, it sure would help to have a speaker of Hungarian. I no longer lean to the 'magyar' theory, but it would not be unusual for a Hungarian living outside of Hungary to have the surname of magyar (similar to Berliner or Milano)---Hungarians do refer to themselves as magyars.

          I hope my theory of 1796's line was clear. Some Mutyars migrated from Hungary to Slovakia and in turn some of the Slovakian group migrated to Poland.

          A word about the difficulties of Americans and English speakers doing family searches in Lithuania. My mother's home town no longer exists on current maps (It was changed from Polish to Lithuanian). The major city closest to my father's home town has also disappeared from modern maps (it was changed from German to Russian). Both of these changes were not minor, the new names do not resemble the old names. Could someone inform me of the new name for Levastopol (No, not in the Crimea).
          Last edited by josh w.; 10 April 2013, 11:16 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Variety of spellings and sounds

            Originally posted by 1796 View Post
            Hi guys. I'm really excited because I just discovered the surname of my father's paternal grandmother. I can't believe it has taken me this long to find it out as I have been on the website that I found it on before, and had no luck. So not sure how I got lucky today!

            Anyway her name was Josephine Mutyar. Her last name does not look like a typical Lithuanian surname. When I try searching for the name in Lithuania I come up with Lithuanian names on Wikipedia. I see nothing there for it. Then in the search if I just put in Mutyar, it appears to be a name associated with Pakistan or India?? So I am a little confused.

            On my grandparents marriage license she is listed as being born in Lithuania, as her husband is listed as being born in Lithuania as well. No towns mentioned of course. Thanks in advance if anyone has insight to this last name being in Lithuania.
            In the responses to your question I haven't noticed anyone suggesting that the name "Mutyar" on the marriage license might be very different from the name she was born with in Lithuania. After all, her given name, "Josephine," doesn't sound Lithuanian at all. There are all sorts of possible scenarios that could result in "Mutyar" on her license, even though her birth surname might have been different.

            She may not have written her own name. A clerk may have written it. He may have transcribed it differently from something he looked at or something he heard. Maybe her husband said the name to the clerk, and the clerk thought it sounded like "Mutyar."

            Maybe she had been using the name "Mutyar" in the US as an Americanization of something that was harder to pronounce here. Maybe she shortened it from something longer. That sort of thing happened a lot more informally way back when. After all, I don't even think that the alphabet used in Lithuanian spelling was even the same as the alphabet used in the US.

            My ancestors' marriage licenses, from the early 1900s in Ohio, sometimes have clear names written that were not the only names I have found for them. My own were Jewish, from eastern Europe, and didn't care too much how their names were spelled - especially the surname of a single woman who would be losing that name imminently.

            So I would suggest that you get very creative in imagining a Lithuanian-sounding name that she derived "Mutyar" from.

            vivian

            Comment


            • #21
              Thank you everyone who has taken an interest to try and help me.

              @khuebner, it certainly is an interesting mystery, I will definitely give an update if I ever find out!

              @mollyblum thanks for looking for the name. In regard to the Turkish aspect. I have a match from Turkey here. My mom has several matches to Turkey over at the other company. So I don't think that is it.

              @vivianruth, yes names get all switched up that is for sure. The thing about this particular record is, it is clearly written. A clerk did write it out, but both of my grandparents signed off under their pertinent information. My grandmother's parent's surnames are written exactly as I would expect them.

              @josh w. yes I remember your suggestion for my father's surname.
              You might be on the right track here for this new name " Some Mutyars migrated from Hungary to Slovakia and in turn some of the Slovakian group migrated to Poland."

              Today I emailed one of my Gedmatch cousins who is Hungarian. I hope he does not mind me quoting him here. And this is only part of the email. He indicated you can find the name in Hungary, and find it with a glyph over the a. "It is definitely not a Hungarian surname, rather sounds Slavic possibly of Slovak origin. But please not that the entire Slovakia used to be part of Hungary for more than a millenium and people migrated within the realm."

              As for the name Josephine itself not being Lithuanian, I don't think it matters much. I have seen plenty of different records list different Josephines being born in Lithuania or Poland. It was a popular first name back in the 19th century, so a lot of girls were given the name. In America it might be listed as this and might have been something else. My Italian/Albanian great grandfather was known as Ralph. His real name was Raffaele. I only know this because of having more information on this side of my family.

              These great grandparents of mine in the 1930 census have the Polish spelling of our last name, and have Poland listed as both of their places of birth. On the 1934 marriage license the Polish spelling is on it, but Lithuania is listed as the place of birth for both my great grandparents. Today I just found them in the 1940 census. My great grandparents have the Lithuanian spelling of the last name, but the place of birth for both of them as Poland. Even my grandfather, and my father he was only 3 yrs old have the Lithuanian spelling in this census. And my great grandparents are buried in a Lithuanian cemetery with the Lithuanian spelling on the headstone. So if Josephine was something else, I'm not too sure why not acknowledge it. But obviously my great grandparents had some kind of issue with sticking with a spelling or the name of the country they were born. I get that those countries had been intertwined, but it sure is confusing.

              I am making plans to visit the courthouse for records in the near future. Hopefully I can uncover more.
              Last edited by Táltos; 10 April 2013, 05:18 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 1796 View Post
                Thank you everyone who has taken an interest to try and help me.

                @khuebner, it certainly is an interesting mystery, I will definitely give an update if I ever find out!

                @mollyblum thanks for looking for the name. In regard to the Turkish aspect. I have a match from Turkey here. My mom has several matches to Turkey over at the other company. So I don't think that is it.

                @vivianruth, yes names get all switched up that is for sure. The thing about this particular record is, it is clearly written. A clerk did write it out, but both of my grandparents signed off under their pertinent information. My grandmother's parent's surnames are written exactly as I would expect them.

                @josh w. yes I remember your suggestion for my father's surname.
                You might be on the right track here for this new name " Some Mutyars migrated from Hungary to Slovakia and in turn some of the Slovakian group migrated to Poland."

                Today I emailed one of my Gedmatch cousins who is Hungarian. I hope he does not mind me quoting him here. And this is only part of the email. He indicated you can find the name in Hungary, and find it with a glyph over the a. "It is definitely not a Hungarian surname, rather sounds Slavic possibly of Slovak origin. But please not that the entire Slovakia used to be part of Hungary for more than a millenium and people migrated within the realm."

                As for the name Josephine itself not being Lithuanian, I don't think it matters much. I have seen plenty of different records list different Josephines being born in Lithuania or Poland. It was a popular first name back in the 19th century, so a lot of girls were given the name. In America it might be listed as this and might have been something else. My Italian/Albanian great grandfather was known as Ralph. His real name was Raffaele. I only know this because of having more information on this side of my family.

                These great grandparents of mine in the 1930 census have the Polish spelling of our last name, and have Poland listed as both of their places of birth. On the 1934 marriage license the Polish spelling is on it, but Lithuania is listed as the place of birth for both my great grandparents. Today I just found them in the 1940 census. My great grandparents have the Lithuanian spelling of the last name, but the place of birth for both of them as Poland. Even my grandfather, and my father he was only 3 yrs old have the Lithuanian spelling in this census. And my great grandparents are buried in a Lithuanian cemetery with the Lithuanian spelling on the headstone. So if Josephine was something else, I'm not too sure why not acknowledge it. But obviously my great grandparents had some kind of issue with sticking with a spelling or the name of the country they were born. I get that those countries had been intertwined, but it sure is confusing.

                I am making plans to visit the courthouse for records in the near future. Hopefully I can uncover more.
                Could Mutyar be Ukrainian. The region of Slovakia where I located a Mutyar was also close to the Ukraine (as is eastern Hungary). 'Yar' is a Ukrainian name or word as in the infamous location of Babi Yar.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                  Could Mutyar be Ukrainian. The region of Slovakia where I located a Mutyar was also close to the Ukraine (as is eastern Hungary). 'Yar' is a Ukrainian name or word as in the infamous location of Babi Yar.
                  Changed my mind, I am fairly sure that Mutyar is Hungarian. In some languages ds can be exchanged for ts. I searched for Mudyar. Turns out that it is the phonetic pronunciation for magyar.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                    Changed my mind, I am fairly sure that Mutyar is Hungarian. In some languages ds can be exchanged for ts. I searched for Mudyar. Turns out that it is the phonetic pronunciation for magyar.
                    Thanks josh w. just found this http://www.histdoc.net/sounds/hungary.html
                    Not sure if you seen this as well. Interesting read.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 1796 View Post
                      Thanks josh w. just found this http://www.histdoc.net/sounds/hungary.html
                      Not sure if you seen this as well. Interesting read.
                      Yes, I had seen the article. Note that the article connected the accent symbol to phonetics of the name in Hungarian, suggesting that the name might be Hungarian. I have seen three other articles connecting Mudyar to Magyar.
                      Last edited by josh w.; 11 April 2013, 11:28 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Two things

                        First thing: Gy is a two letter representation of a single phoneme in Hungarian, like sh or ch represent single sounds in English. If you go to 'Hungarian language' in Wikipedia you can listen to the sound of Magyar. That Gy is a "voiced palatal plosive". It sounds like a blend of dy or ty to me. So an American or Lithuanian might hear Magyar as Madyar, Matyar or Mutyar.

                        Second thing: Austro-Hungarian Empire - It ran from the Adriatic to what are now parts of Poland and Ukraine. Civil servants, trades people, draftees, etc. all moved around the empire. You can look at telephone books in the countries that were part of the empire and see the mixture of surnames - German, Slavic, Hungarian - maybe even Lithuanian!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I actually didn't say the name didn't sound Lithuanian- just didn't sound Jewish. But it was probably originally spelled Jozefina or something like that which is definitely found in Slavic countries, Poland, etc.

                          My grandparents census origins were different each decade; one year Russia; one year Poland; one year Russia/Poland; Germany, etc. This might have been due to the border changes or probably the census takers or my ggrandparents throwing out names. For yours to say Lithuania each time is odd if she is not from there.

                          Please let us know what you find. I am intrigued

                          Do you have any birth records you could order that might help? The ones I ordered in NYC for mine listed country of birth.

                          Sorry for any spelling or grammatical/nonsensical errors. Just had surgery and am all looped up
                          AB
                          Last edited by mollyblum; 11 April 2013, 03:11 PM. Reason: Typo

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JohnG View Post
                            First thing: Gy is a two letter representation of a single phoneme in Hungarian, like sh or ch represent single sounds in English. If you go to 'Hungarian language' in Wikipedia you can listen to the sound of Magyar. That Gy is a "voiced palatal plosive". It sounds like a blend of dy or ty to me. So an American or Lithuanian might hear Magyar as Madyar, Matyar or Mutyar.

                            Second thing: Austro-Hungarian Empire - It ran from the Adriatic to what are now parts of Poland and Ukraine. Civil servants, trades people, draftees, etc. all moved around the empire. You can look at telephone books in the countries that were part of the empire and see the mixture of surnames - German, Slavic, Hungarian - maybe even Lithuanian!
                            Thanks for the info. During those times there was a limited amount of literacy in some areas---pronunciation was more important than spelling.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JohnG View Post
                              First thing: Gy is a two letter representation of a single phoneme in Hungarian, like sh or ch represent single sounds in English. If you go to 'Hungarian language' in Wikipedia you can listen to the sound of Magyar. That Gy is a "voiced palatal plosive". It sounds like a blend of dy or ty to me. So an American or Lithuanian might hear Magyar as Madyar, Matyar or Mutyar.

                              Second thing: Austro-Hungarian Empire - It ran from the Adriatic to what are now parts of Poland and Ukraine. Civil servants, trades people, draftees, etc. all moved around the empire. You can look at telephone books in the countries that were part of the empire and see the mixture of surnames - German, Slavic, Hungarian - maybe even Lithuanian!
                              @JohnG thanks so much! I just checked it out. That is terrific! I also came across some maps that really show how the borders of the areas in question changed over the centuries. Despite knowing the border changes, I am a very visual person. Looking at something really helps. And boy am I going to prove how my statement that I make about needing pictures and maps drawn is ever so true!

                              @josh w. and others who are interested in the areas may find this helpful. Though some of you guys may have already seen these.

                              http://genealogy.about.com/gi/o.htm?...genealogy.org/
                              Click on the part that says maps.

                              @mollyblum no problem, another poster too had mentioned that the name Josephine itself did not seem Lithuanian. Though you meant not sounding Jewish. I had also emailed one of my Lithuanian FF matches and he set me straight on the Lithuanian version of Josephine. It is Juzefa. So I will have to use this spelling as well when I search for records. I hope I can find out something more, I will definitely let you know. I hope you have a speedy recovery from your surgery.
                              Last edited by Táltos; 11 April 2013, 10:26 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                1796, check your private messages

                                I just found a second marriage record (for a son of George & Josephine's) that shows Josephine's maiden name as Miscavage. Look at what I sent you to confirm it's the right people in the right place.

                                That name can be spelled many ways. Just change up the vowels but I've seen the name as Miskevich, too. Miskewicz. Maybe Mesevicius.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X