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what markers for direct descent from only Original Jews?

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  • IAB
    replied
    Originally posted by girlperson1 View Post
    There is currently no way to know the direct bloodline of Abraham and Sarah without locating their burial site and testing their DNA. As far as I know, they have not been tested although it is claimed they are buried here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs .
    From my studies on the site. Moshe Dayan came by one night and dismissed the Arab watchmen and with some other Jews removed the one entrance inside that led to the caves interior. A small child was let down into the tunnels. If you look for Machpelah exterior entrance you will see that their is a hole in grounds outside the tombs, though I dare anyone risk the neck to try and go in there.

    Supposedly nothing was found. Dayan as was know, was a notorious antiquities collector read thief who no doubt though he might find some treasures down in the cave because seeing as gave he up control of the Temple Mount after the 6 day war, visiting the ancestors was the last thing he cared about.

    Allegedly nobody who has had a chance to enter has found the remains of anybody. Jacob was embalmed and preserved so at the very least we should have found the remains of his Egyptian style coffin even if in pieces due to grave robbers. But theres nothing there to substantiate the claim that this was the cave. Some say the Crusaders out of respect buried the remains when they entered the cave but their is no historical record to that effect.

    As much as I want to believe this is the spot of our great ancestral patriarchs I dont think it is. The fact that people have worshiped here for even a couple thousand years only mean they have great faith that they are praying in the right place. The whole area is rife with ancient burial places.

    So while your idea of getting DNA from the source is a great idea and would be the scientific holy grail of the century it was done. I dont thing we are at the right place.

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  • felix
    replied
    Originally posted by AndrewS View Post
    genetic change is understood to occur at a relatively constant rate
    No!


    Further, these does not include other factors like the very cause of mutation which is UV and environment changes which increases the mutation rates. Some haplogroups are also noted to have varying mutation rates. esp. (i think G from my memory).

    The rate at which "mistakes" occur in DNA are not fully "predictable". These "predictions" are not based on "science" either but statistics and probability of mathematics. If a mutation rate is say, 0.001 and nearly a 1000 years had already past without any mutation, then there is nothing on science that says, this mutation is due and could occur anytime.

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  • AndrewS
    replied
    I believe that better-educated men will see that my language is informal. So, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with this.

    Originally posted by 507 View Post
    I didn't know the Bible specifically stated when Abraham was born. What year it was.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchs_%28Bible%29

    I assume there is operational science and theoretical science.

    I don't believe that people with a different worldview, a Creationist worldview, have any qualms against what can be observed and practiced in the physical world.

    The reason why this question opens up a can of worms is because, if you take the Bible at face value, you could then roughly calculate the date of Creation.

    This is at odds with Uniformitarian, materialist worldview, in part, because genetic change is understood to occur at a relatively constant rate.

    At this time, even modern races of men are assumed to originate at dates much earlier than the presumptive Biblical date of Creation, appoximately 6,000 years ago.

    You might also notice that the reported lifespans of the patriarchs are much longer than what we would normally expect, today.

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by felix View Post
    Having said, that group may not necessarily the true lineage of Jacob or Abraham. There is still no evidence that neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic from whom most comparisons/research are made were the true lineages of Jacob. I am not saying they are not. What I am saying is, there is no solid proof (not 100%) for it for anyone to say someone as Jewish ancestry because of the definition of who can become a Jew or Israelite is very different in the books of Moses, and certainly people who were non lineages of Jacob did became Jews in the past several times.
    Let me put it more bluntly.

    I'm not Jewish myself, but have you considered that your interpretation of the Bible and what it says about who's Jewish and who's not (see my bolding of your quote above) may exclude some very devout practicing Jews and offend them? Do you think if that happens it may lead to a non-productive argument that derails this thread?

    That's just an example of what may occur and why discussion of religious beliefs is generally avoided on this and other genetic genealogy forums.
    Last edited by MMaddi; 31 March 2013, 11:11 PM.

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  • felix
    replied
    Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
    felix,

    Vinnie's point, which is correct in my view, is that it's never conducive to reasonable, scientific discussion of DNA results to appeal to religious belief. Haven't we seen enough religious animosity and even wars over millenia to realize that people will believe what they want to believe and won't be swayed by contrary religious beliefs of others?

    So, a kind of unwritten rule in genetic genealogy forums is to avoid discussion of religious beliefs because it usually ends in animosity and talking past each other. That's why Vinnie warned you that further religious discussion may result in the thread being locked by the moderator. I've seen it happen before, more than once or twice.
    I do understand that but being Jewish (from the tribe of Judah) ancestry itself is based on religious belief's and views.

    The problem is, genetics does not define who is a Jew. It merely compares a DNA from one person to a group of other people. It is matches, it can only say that this person is related to that group.

    Having said, that group may not necessarily the true lineage of Jacob or Abraham. There is still no evidence that neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic from whom most comparisons/research are made were the true lineages of Jacob. I am not saying they are not. What I am saying is, there is no solid proof (not 100%) for it for anyone to say someone as Jewish ancestry because of the definition of who can become a Jew or Israelite is very different in the books of Moses, and certainly people who were non lineages of Jacob did became Jews in the past several times.

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    felix,

    Vinnie's point, which is correct in my view, is that it's never conducive to reasonable, scientific discussion of DNA results to appeal to religious belief. Haven't we seen enough religious animosity and even wars over millenia to realize that people will believe what they want to believe and won't be swayed by contrary religious beliefs of others?

    So, a kind of unwritten rule in genetic genealogy forums is to avoid discussion of religious beliefs because it usually ends in animosity and talking past each other. That's why Vinnie warned you that further religious discussion may result in the thread being locked by the moderator. I've seen it happen before, more than once or twice.

    Leave a comment:


  • tomcat
    replied
    Never mind. My SNARK flew below all radar.

    If you would like your snark to fly below the radar, contact me for a quote.

    Leave a comment:


  • felix
    replied
    Originally posted by tomcat View Post
    (Ezra 1:5) Then the heads of the fathers' [houses] of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which [is] in Jerusalem.


    Clearly, the franchise to own is the franchise for the insertion of parenthetical exegesis in the word of G-D. I love publishing!
    That's understandable because, Ezra lived a 1000 years later than Judah, Benjamin and Levites and they are not speaking about their fathers but the fathers in those tribes.
    Last edited by felix; 31 March 2013, 10:13 PM. Reason: quote messed up

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  • tomcat
    replied
    [QUOTE=felix;359806]
    (Ezra 1:5) Then the heads of the fathers' [houses] of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which [is] in Jerusalem.


    Clearly, the franchise to own is the franchise for the insertion of parenthetical exegesis in the word of G-D. I LOVE publishing!
    Last edited by tomcat; 31 March 2013, 10:13 PM.

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  • felix
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
    I think that's a bit unfair. This company's founder started it in order to answer his own personal question as to the origin of the Cohanim. No, the thread won't be locked because your posts could damage FTDNA's business; if that were the case, they wouldn't allow the frequent posts discussing the virtues of other companies. Rather, because there are a lot of people who are members of this forum who don't share your beliefs, the posts may end up being quite unpleasant, as has happened in the past.
    I think you missed me - FTDNA does a good job of testing DNA and I had done a comprehensive test with them and I am happy with it. I am neither Jew nor related to any Jew and I was merely pointing out based on my knowledge of the Bible.

    Jewish and Cohanim itself is based on religious beliefs and you cannot exclude religion when testing esp., for "Jewish" ancestry. It is impossible to track the lost tribes (sometimes even the tribe of Judah & Benjamin) through genetics for two reasons.
    1. Firstly, anyone can become a Jew even according to the law. So, even if I am not a Jew from the lineage of Judah (or Jacob for Israel), I can still claim Jewish lineage because I became a Jew. Which is why, the recent law change in Israel will not allow people with Jewish ancestry to migrate in Israel unless they follow Judaism [1].
    2. Secondly, Ashkenazic and Sephardic contribute a very small percentage before a millennium ago. No one knows if they were converts or of true lineage. So, doing much research on a false-lineage will not yield correct results. A large number of converted Jews came out of Khazars (a Jewish nation) but no one knows if the Ashkenazic and/or Sephardic were indeed Khazars. Much of history is lost in time.


    The present genetic DNA testing can only say if someone is related to Ashkenazic or Sephardic - but not necessarily true Israelite lineage.

    [1] According to the Law of Moses, anyone can become a Jew as long as he is circumcised (Exodus 12:48,Genesis 17:10), except He must not be a Edomite, Egyptian (only 3rd generation is allowed - Deuteronomy 23:7-8) and not Ammonite or Moabite (only 10th generation is allowed - Deuteronomy 23:3).

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  • vinnie
    replied
    I think that's a bit unfair. This company's founder started it in order to answer his own personal question as to the origin of the Cohanim. No, the thread won't be locked because your posts could damage FTDNA's business; if that were the case, they wouldn't allow the frequent posts discussing the virtues of other companies. Rather, because there are a lot of people who are members of this forum who don't share your beliefs, the posts may end up being quite unpleasant, as has happened in the past.

    Leave a comment:


  • felix
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
    Felix,

    In the past, threads such as this one often don't go anywhere productive and sometimes they're locked because they center more on religious belief than DNA results. I think you're making several assumptions, but rather than responding here, I'll be happy to engage you in discussion through private e-mails if you'd like.
    Yes, I understand because FTDNA does have a $159 package to test Jewish ancestry and if I prove them wrong (or not 100%) based on what the Bible says, then obvious there is high possibility of the thread getting locked. After all it is a company maximizing profit.

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  • vinnie
    replied
    Felix,

    In the past, threads such as this one often don't go anywhere productive and sometimes they're locked because they center more on religious belief than DNA results. I think you're making several assumptions, but rather than responding here, I'll be happy to engage you in discussion through private e-mails if you'd like.

    Leave a comment:


  • felix
    replied
    Originally posted by tomcat View Post
    Is there a site where we can get a correct biblically-informed interpretation of our DNA results?

    (Edit): Sorry, that may be prejudicial. Where are the sites where we can get a variety of conjectural biblically-informed interpretations of our DNA results?
    The books written were actually spoken to common people by prophets who were mostly common people. I don't know why someone would require an interpretation for something spoken to common people more than 2000-3000 years back. The verses are plain and simple in the Bible - esp., Torah and the books of the prophets. You will find it plain and simple if you read it yourself.

    [This is just Judah, Benjamin and Levites]

    (Ezra 1:5) Then the heads of the fathers' [houses] of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which [is] in Jerusalem.


    (Nehemiah 7:66) Altogether the whole assembly was 42360,
    :
    (Nehemiah 9:2) Then those of Israelite lineage separated themselves from all foreigners; and they stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers.
    :
    (Nehemiah 13:24-25) And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and could not speak the language of Judah, but spoke according to the language of one or the other people. So I contended with them and cursed them, struck some of them and pulled out their hair, and made them swear by God, [saying,] "You shall not give your daughters as wives to their sons, nor take their daughters for your sons or yourselves.


    [That is nearly 20000 mixed people who cannot speak the language of Judah]

    So, the actual Israelites who can trace back their lineage (tribe of Judah and Levites) were 20000 people according to the book of Nehemiah. It is to be noted that the mixed people were living among them and the law allows them to come into the assembly after 10 generations (as in case of King David for the sin of Judah with his daughter of law and David happens to be the 11th generation).

    Coming back to the lost tribe:

    (2 Kings 17:6) In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
    (2 Kings 17:7) For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and they had feared other gods,
    (2 Kings 17:8) and had walked in the statutes of the nations whom the LORD had cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.
    :
    (2 Kings 17:18) Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone.
    :
    (2 Kings 17:24) Then the king of Assyria brought [people] from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed [them] in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria and dwelt in its cities.


    Clearly, the lost 10 tribes where not following YHWH and were following other gods. Hence, searching for people who follow Jewish customs today on other parts of the world will not yield any positive results hecause they weren't following Jewish customes 2800 year back itself. The 10 tribes first moved to Halah, Habor, Gozan and in cities of Medes - neither returned nor followed YHWH.

    The only clue is through Genetics. However, there is still a problem here because, all those who follow Jewish customs and claim to be from other tribes where not truly from other tribes except a few who must be from Judah or Benjamin who were scattered from 70 AD and ~150 AD. Both Ashkenazic and Sephardic today can be attributed only to the tribe of Judah or Benjamin with not 100% accuracy because, they contributed a very small percent before a millennium compared to 80% today.

    The lost tribe remains unknown till date.

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by tomcat View Post
    Is there a site where we can get a correct biblically-informed interpretation of our DNA results?

    (Edit): Sorry, that may be prejudicial. Where are the sites where we can get a variety of conjectural biblically-informed interpretations of our DNA results?
    Last edited by tomcat; 31 March 2013, 05:29 PM. Reason: Okay, what do I know? Didn't a toad, or something, call the Superbowl? Rats are smart, maybe smarter than me.

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