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what markers for direct descent from only Original Jews?

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  • #16
    [QUOTE=felix;359806]
    (Ezra 1:5) Then the heads of the fathers' [houses] of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which [is] in Jerusalem.


    Clearly, the franchise to own is the franchise for the insertion of parenthetical exegesis in the word of G-D. I LOVE publishing!
    Last edited by tomcat; 31 March 2013, 10:13 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tomcat View Post
      (Ezra 1:5) Then the heads of the fathers' [houses] of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which [is] in Jerusalem.


      Clearly, the franchise to own is the franchise for the insertion of parenthetical exegesis in the word of G-D. I love publishing!
      That's understandable because, Ezra lived a 1000 years later than Judah, Benjamin and Levites and they are not speaking about their fathers but the fathers in those tribes.
      Last edited by felix; 31 March 2013, 10:13 PM. Reason: quote messed up

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      • #18
        Never mind. My SNARK flew below all radar.

        If you would like your snark to fly below the radar, contact me for a quote.

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        • #19
          felix,

          Vinnie's point, which is correct in my view, is that it's never conducive to reasonable, scientific discussion of DNA results to appeal to religious belief. Haven't we seen enough religious animosity and even wars over millenia to realize that people will believe what they want to believe and won't be swayed by contrary religious beliefs of others?

          So, a kind of unwritten rule in genetic genealogy forums is to avoid discussion of religious beliefs because it usually ends in animosity and talking past each other. That's why Vinnie warned you that further religious discussion may result in the thread being locked by the moderator. I've seen it happen before, more than once or twice.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
            felix,

            Vinnie's point, which is correct in my view, is that it's never conducive to reasonable, scientific discussion of DNA results to appeal to religious belief. Haven't we seen enough religious animosity and even wars over millenia to realize that people will believe what they want to believe and won't be swayed by contrary religious beliefs of others?

            So, a kind of unwritten rule in genetic genealogy forums is to avoid discussion of religious beliefs because it usually ends in animosity and talking past each other. That's why Vinnie warned you that further religious discussion may result in the thread being locked by the moderator. I've seen it happen before, more than once or twice.
            I do understand that but being Jewish (from the tribe of Judah) ancestry itself is based on religious belief's and views.

            The problem is, genetics does not define who is a Jew. It merely compares a DNA from one person to a group of other people. It is matches, it can only say that this person is related to that group.

            Having said, that group may not necessarily the true lineage of Jacob or Abraham. There is still no evidence that neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic from whom most comparisons/research are made were the true lineages of Jacob. I am not saying they are not. What I am saying is, there is no solid proof (not 100%) for it for anyone to say someone as Jewish ancestry because of the definition of who can become a Jew or Israelite is very different in the books of Moses, and certainly people who were non lineages of Jacob did became Jews in the past several times.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by felix View Post
              Having said, that group may not necessarily the true lineage of Jacob or Abraham. There is still no evidence that neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic from whom most comparisons/research are made were the true lineages of Jacob. I am not saying they are not. What I am saying is, there is no solid proof (not 100%) for it for anyone to say someone as Jewish ancestry because of the definition of who can become a Jew or Israelite is very different in the books of Moses, and certainly people who were non lineages of Jacob did became Jews in the past several times.
              Let me put it more bluntly.

              I'm not Jewish myself, but have you considered that your interpretation of the Bible and what it says about who's Jewish and who's not (see my bolding of your quote above) may exclude some very devout practicing Jews and offend them? Do you think if that happens it may lead to a non-productive argument that derails this thread?

              That's just an example of what may occur and why discussion of religious beliefs is generally avoided on this and other genetic genealogy forums.
              Last edited by MMaddi; 31 March 2013, 11:11 PM.

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              • #22
                I believe that better-educated men will see that my language is informal. So, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with this.

                Originally posted by 507 View Post
                I didn't know the Bible specifically stated when Abraham was born. What year it was.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchs_%28Bible%29

                I assume there is operational science and theoretical science.

                I don't believe that people with a different worldview, a Creationist worldview, have any qualms against what can be observed and practiced in the physical world.

                The reason why this question opens up a can of worms is because, if you take the Bible at face value, you could then roughly calculate the date of Creation.

                This is at odds with Uniformitarian, materialist worldview, in part, because genetic change is understood to occur at a relatively constant rate.

                At this time, even modern races of men are assumed to originate at dates much earlier than the presumptive Biblical date of Creation, appoximately 6,000 years ago.

                You might also notice that the reported lifespans of the patriarchs are much longer than what we would normally expect, today.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by AndrewS View Post
                  genetic change is understood to occur at a relatively constant rate
                  No!


                  Further, these does not include other factors like the very cause of mutation which is UV and environment changes which increases the mutation rates. Some haplogroups are also noted to have varying mutation rates. esp. (i think G from my memory).

                  The rate at which "mistakes" occur in DNA are not fully "predictable". These "predictions" are not based on "science" either but statistics and probability of mathematics. If a mutation rate is say, 0.001 and nearly a 1000 years had already past without any mutation, then there is nothing on science that says, this mutation is due and could occur anytime.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by girlperson1 View Post
                    There is currently no way to know the direct bloodline of Abraham and Sarah without locating their burial site and testing their DNA. As far as I know, they have not been tested although it is claimed they are buried here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs .
                    From my studies on the site. Moshe Dayan came by one night and dismissed the Arab watchmen and with some other Jews removed the one entrance inside that led to the caves interior. A small child was let down into the tunnels. If you look for Machpelah exterior entrance you will see that their is a hole in grounds outside the tombs, though I dare anyone risk the neck to try and go in there.

                    Supposedly nothing was found. Dayan as was know, was a notorious antiquities collector read thief who no doubt though he might find some treasures down in the cave because seeing as gave he up control of the Temple Mount after the 6 day war, visiting the ancestors was the last thing he cared about.

                    Allegedly nobody who has had a chance to enter has found the remains of anybody. Jacob was embalmed and preserved so at the very least we should have found the remains of his Egyptian style coffin even if in pieces due to grave robbers. But theres nothing there to substantiate the claim that this was the cave. Some say the Crusaders out of respect buried the remains when they entered the cave but their is no historical record to that effect.

                    As much as I want to believe this is the spot of our great ancestral patriarchs I dont think it is. The fact that people have worshiped here for even a couple thousand years only mean they have great faith that they are praying in the right place. The whole area is rife with ancient burial places.

                    So while your idea of getting DNA from the source is a great idea and would be the scientific holy grail of the century it was done. I dont thing we are at the right place.

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