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what markers for direct descent from only Original Jews?

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  • what markers for direct descent from only Original Jews?

    With no dilution from "converted" Jews in the 5500+ years since?
    Is this a question that genealogy can currently answer?
    Thanks in advance! (genealogy neophyte)
    Last edited by H1B1-L278; 23 March 2013, 05:41 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by H1B1-L278 View Post
    With no dilution from "converted" Jews in the 5500+ years since?
    First of all, there were no "Jews" 5500 years ago; second, 5500 years ago, occupants of the Near East were probably already a mix of haplogroups (including primarily J1, J2, E1b1b; some G, T, R1b, and R2; and probably a few I2, L2, and H and probably traces of other rarer haplogroups such as F and certain Q subclades and potentially other haplogroup lineages and sublineages that have not survived in numbers such as DE).

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    • #3
      I didn't know the Bible specifically stated when Abraham was born. What year it was.

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      • #4
        Cave of the Patriarchs.

        Originally posted by 507 View Post
        I didn't know the Bible specifically stated when Abraham was born. What year it was.
        There is currently no way to know the direct bloodline of Abraham and Sarah without locating their burial site and testing their DNA. As far as I know, they have not been tested although it is claimed they are buried here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs .

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        • #5
          "in the 5500+ years since"
          Whoops! That should be 3500+ years ago...?
          (was referencing Hebrew Calendar year by mistake!)
          Last edited by H1B1-L278; 24 March 2013, 04:51 AM.

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          • #6
            As far as we know Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's DNA hasn't been tested yet. So no one knows what their haplogroups were.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by H1B1-L278 View Post
              With no dilution from "converted" Jews in the 5500+ years since?
              Is this a question that genealogy can currently answer?
              Thanks in advance! (genealogy neophyte)
              Jew in terms of ancestry in strict terms only represents the descendants of Judah and Benjamin, (including the tribe of Levites) from the Southern Kingdom. Even the Jews, there were Hellenization during 150-100 BC and several mixes. At one verse in OT in Ezra, nearly half of them were crossed and their offspring don't even speak their language. Also, the world Hebrew itself is not a language but used to describe the descendants of Eber (grandson of Noah) - Which is why Abraham is a Hebrew (Genesis 14:13) while his brother's descendants i.e., Laban became a Syrian (Genesis 31:24) based on location. If you are looking for descendants of Jacob (which includes the lost tribes) then the present research is useless. However, if "father of nations" prophecy to be true, Abraham cannot be J because, it is mostly restricted to Semitic. Abraham could be Haplogroup F because, 90% of today's world population including Europe, India, China, New World and even Oceania - all originated from Middle East descended from F fulfilling the prophesy in Genesis 15:5.

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              • #8
                Is there a site where we can get a correct biblically-informed interpretation of our DNA results?

                (Edit): Sorry, that may be prejudicial. Where are the sites where we can get a variety of conjectural biblically-informed interpretations of our DNA results?
                Last edited by tomcat; 31 March 2013, 04:52 PM. Reason: Edited for so-called "political correctness"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                  Is there a site where we can get a correct biblically-informed interpretation of our DNA results?

                  (Edit): Sorry, that may be prejudicial. Where are the sites where we can get a variety of conjectural biblically-informed interpretations of our DNA results?
                  Last edited by tomcat; 31 March 2013, 05:16 PM. Reason: Okay, beyond biblical, but in the spirit of ecumenialism, but don't get me wrong, I will not bow down to rats.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                    Is there a site where we can get a correct biblically-informed interpretation of our DNA results?

                    (Edit): Sorry, that may be prejudicial. Where are the sites where we can get a variety of conjectural biblically-informed interpretations of our DNA results?
                    Last edited by tomcat; 31 March 2013, 05:29 PM. Reason: Okay, what do I know? Didn't a toad, or something, call the Superbowl? Rats are smart, maybe smarter than me.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                      Is there a site where we can get a correct biblically-informed interpretation of our DNA results?

                      (Edit): Sorry, that may be prejudicial. Where are the sites where we can get a variety of conjectural biblically-informed interpretations of our DNA results?
                      The books written were actually spoken to common people by prophets who were mostly common people. I don't know why someone would require an interpretation for something spoken to common people more than 2000-3000 years back. The verses are plain and simple in the Bible - esp., Torah and the books of the prophets. You will find it plain and simple if you read it yourself.

                      [This is just Judah, Benjamin and Levites]

                      (Ezra 1:5) Then the heads of the fathers' [houses] of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, with all whose spirits God had moved, arose to go up and build the house of the LORD which [is] in Jerusalem.


                      (Nehemiah 7:66) Altogether the whole assembly was 42360,
                      :
                      (Nehemiah 9:2) Then those of Israelite lineage separated themselves from all foreigners; and they stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers.
                      :
                      (Nehemiah 13:24-25) And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and could not speak the language of Judah, but spoke according to the language of one or the other people. So I contended with them and cursed them, struck some of them and pulled out their hair, and made them swear by God, [saying,] "You shall not give your daughters as wives to their sons, nor take their daughters for your sons or yourselves.


                      [That is nearly 20000 mixed people who cannot speak the language of Judah]

                      So, the actual Israelites who can trace back their lineage (tribe of Judah and Levites) were 20000 people according to the book of Nehemiah. It is to be noted that the mixed people were living among them and the law allows them to come into the assembly after 10 generations (as in case of King David for the sin of Judah with his daughter of law and David happens to be the 11th generation).

                      Coming back to the lost tribe:

                      (2 Kings 17:6) In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.
                      (2 Kings 17:7) For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and they had feared other gods,
                      (2 Kings 17:8) and had walked in the statutes of the nations whom the LORD had cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.
                      :
                      (2 Kings 17:18) Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone.
                      :
                      (2 Kings 17:24) Then the king of Assyria brought [people] from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed [them] in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel; and they took possession of Samaria and dwelt in its cities.


                      Clearly, the lost 10 tribes where not following YHWH and were following other gods. Hence, searching for people who follow Jewish customs today on other parts of the world will not yield any positive results hecause they weren't following Jewish customes 2800 year back itself. The 10 tribes first moved to Halah, Habor, Gozan and in cities of Medes - neither returned nor followed YHWH.

                      The only clue is through Genetics. However, there is still a problem here because, all those who follow Jewish customs and claim to be from other tribes where not truly from other tribes except a few who must be from Judah or Benjamin who were scattered from 70 AD and ~150 AD. Both Ashkenazic and Sephardic today can be attributed only to the tribe of Judah or Benjamin with not 100% accuracy because, they contributed a very small percent before a millennium compared to 80% today.

                      The lost tribe remains unknown till date.

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                      • #12
                        Felix,

                        In the past, threads such as this one often don't go anywhere productive and sometimes they're locked because they center more on religious belief than DNA results. I think you're making several assumptions, but rather than responding here, I'll be happy to engage you in discussion through private e-mails if you'd like.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by vinnie View Post
                          Felix,

                          In the past, threads such as this one often don't go anywhere productive and sometimes they're locked because they center more on religious belief than DNA results. I think you're making several assumptions, but rather than responding here, I'll be happy to engage you in discussion through private e-mails if you'd like.
                          Yes, I understand because FTDNA does have a $159 package to test Jewish ancestry and if I prove them wrong (or not 100%) based on what the Bible says, then obvious there is high possibility of the thread getting locked. After all it is a company maximizing profit.

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                          • #14
                            I think that's a bit unfair. This company's founder started it in order to answer his own personal question as to the origin of the Cohanim. No, the thread won't be locked because your posts could damage FTDNA's business; if that were the case, they wouldn't allow the frequent posts discussing the virtues of other companies. Rather, because there are a lot of people who are members of this forum who don't share your beliefs, the posts may end up being quite unpleasant, as has happened in the past.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vinnie View Post
                              I think that's a bit unfair. This company's founder started it in order to answer his own personal question as to the origin of the Cohanim. No, the thread won't be locked because your posts could damage FTDNA's business; if that were the case, they wouldn't allow the frequent posts discussing the virtues of other companies. Rather, because there are a lot of people who are members of this forum who don't share your beliefs, the posts may end up being quite unpleasant, as has happened in the past.
                              I think you missed me - FTDNA does a good job of testing DNA and I had done a comprehensive test with them and I am happy with it. I am neither Jew nor related to any Jew and I was merely pointing out based on my knowledge of the Bible.

                              Jewish and Cohanim itself is based on religious beliefs and you cannot exclude religion when testing esp., for "Jewish" ancestry. It is impossible to track the lost tribes (sometimes even the tribe of Judah & Benjamin) through genetics for two reasons.
                              1. Firstly, anyone can become a Jew even according to the law. So, even if I am not a Jew from the lineage of Judah (or Jacob for Israel), I can still claim Jewish lineage because I became a Jew. Which is why, the recent law change in Israel will not allow people with Jewish ancestry to migrate in Israel unless they follow Judaism [1].
                              2. Secondly, Ashkenazic and Sephardic contribute a very small percentage before a millennium ago. No one knows if they were converts or of true lineage. So, doing much research on a false-lineage will not yield correct results. A large number of converted Jews came out of Khazars (a Jewish nation) but no one knows if the Ashkenazic and/or Sephardic were indeed Khazars. Much of history is lost in time.


                              The present genetic DNA testing can only say if someone is related to Ashkenazic or Sephardic - but not necessarily true Israelite lineage.

                              [1] According to the Law of Moses, anyone can become a Jew as long as he is circumcised (Exodus 12:48,Genesis 17:10), except He must not be a Edomite, Egyptian (only 3rd generation is allowed - Deuteronomy 23:7-8) and not Ammonite or Moabite (only 10th generation is allowed - Deuteronomy 23:3).

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