Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ashkenazi Genetics Illuminate History

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by JTR View Post
    Thanks Josh!

    Am I correct in thinking that whether this paper is correct or not that this only explains the origin of Eastern European Jews and not German Jews per-se? If so, do we know the origin of German Jews?
    Jews first came to Germany by migrating over the Alps with Roman troops. Records go back to around 300 C.E.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JTR View Post
      Thanks Josh!

      Am I correct in thinking that whether this paper is correct or not that this only explains the origin of Eastern European Jews and not German Jews per-se? If so, do we know the origin of German Jews?
      If you mean the Jews who were in Germany in the Middle Ages, as was said, the prevailing opinion is that they came from Italy.

      If you mean the Jews in Germany who either left or were killed during the Hitler Era, they were from the remnant of those who did not move east plus Sephardic Jews who came from Iberia mostly via the Netherlands. They were augmented by Jews from the east relatively recently.

      The Jews living currently in Germany are Holocaust survivors and immigrants from eastern Europe.


      Edit: The first part as josh w. just stated.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ursus View Post
        If you mean the Jews who were in Germany in the Middle Ages, as was said, the prevailing opinion is that they came from Italy.

        If you mean the Jews in Germany who either left or were killed during the Hitler Era, they were from the remnant of those who did not move east plus Sephardic Jews who came from Iberia mostly via the Netherlands. They were augmented by Jews from the east relatively recently.

        The Jews living currently in Germany are Holocaust survivors and immigrants from eastern Europe.


        Edit: The first part as josh w. just stated.
        It should be noted that there is a complication regarding German Jews. Many German Jews cannot trace their German line before the mid 1600s. The reason is that many Jews were expelled from German cities during the late 1400s and 1500s. Jews were permitted to emigrate to Germany after the Thirty Years War. It is possible that some of these immigrants had not lived in Germany before. Thus the Khazar theory cannot be ruled out just by the presence of German Jews although there is other evidence against the Khazar theory as reported on this thread.
        Last edited by josh w.; 26 January 2013, 11:58 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by josh w. View Post
          It should be noted that there is a complication regarding German Jews. Many German Jews cannot trace their German line before the mid 1600s. The reason is that many Jews were expelled from German cities during the late 1400s and 1500s. Jews were permitted to emigrate to Germany after the Thirty Years War. It is possible that some of these immigrants had not lived in Germany before. Thus the Khazar theory cannot be ruled out just by the presence of German Jews although there is other evidence against the Khazar theory as reported on this thread.
          I would be overjoyed if I could trace all of my lines back to the mid-1600s. A lot of records were destroyed on Reichskristallnacht and for many places they never existed back that far in the first place.

          You are correct that some (a lot?) of German places allowed Jews to immigrate after the Thirty Jews War in order to help repopulate, but for what it is worth, the only instance on my tree where I know that happened from outside of Germany were Sephardic Jews that came from the Papal territory of Avignon in France.

          I do agree that some probably came from the east and may have had some Khazar ancestry. The question to me is how much of a factor the Khazars were in Germany and European Jewry as a whole. I suspect that it is a small factor.

          Comment


          • #20
            So I guess I am still confused about the data used.

            Josh- your haplogroup is J2. Mine is K1a1b1a which Behar references in her article on the matrilineal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry. I am not sure of the other haplogroups for Ashkenazi Jews but is this article implying that all haplogroups of Ashkenazim descend from the Khazars? Or just one haplogroup?

            If he is saying all- wouldn't we all have the same haplogroup? Or at least a larger majority (I guess our patrilineal side could be a different ethnic group)?

            And again why does our ancestry show up as Middle Eastern? In the Behar paper she even states that my haplogroup originated in the Middle East.

            I am also looking for answers to a different question. I recently contacted a possible Schoenberg connection online and was surprised to learn when he responded that he was Sephardic (Portuguese I believe). We found a possible connection and he showed me a book that I started reading on the Schoenberg family that traced them back to Spain and Portugal where they were known as the Belmont's (Belmonte's- meaning beautiful mountain). My Schoenberg's were from the Ukraine. How would I know genetically if I were part Sephardic? The other Jewish side is not Sephardic.

            The problem is that I am also Italian/Albanian (non-Jew ).

            I just ordered a kit for my mother to test and am hoping that her results will help with the mystery but not sure how Sephardic Jewish shows up-if it shows up?

            AB

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
              So I guess I am still confused about the data used.

              Josh- your haplogroup is J2. Mine is K1a1b1a which Behar references in her article on the matrilineal ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry. I am not sure of the other haplogroups for Ashkenazi Jews but is this article implying that all haplogroups of Ashkenazim descend from the Khazars? Or just one haplogroup?

              If he is saying all- wouldn't we all have the same haplogroup? Or at least a larger majority (I guess our patrilineal side could be a different ethnic group)?

              And again why does our ancestry show up as Middle Eastern? In the Behar paper she even states that my haplogroup originated in the Middle East.

              I am also looking for answers to a different question. I recently contacted a possible Schoenberg connection online and was surprised to learn when he responded that he was Sephardic (Portuguese I believe). We found a possible connection and he showed me a book that I started reading on the Schoenberg family that traced them back to Spain and Portugal where they were known as the Belmont's (Belmonte's- meaning beautiful mountain). My Schoenberg's were from the Ukraine. How would I know genetically if I were part Sephardic? The other Jewish side is not Sephardic.

              The problem is that I am also Italian/Albanian (non-Jew ).

              I just ordered a kit for my mother to test and am hoping that her results will help with the mystery but not sure how Sephardic Jewish shows up-if it shows up?

              AB
              I highly doubt that all Schoenbergs are related. It is just too common name for that to have happned. The name was most likely adopted by many unrelated people in various places in Europe.

              The famous August Belmont was originally named Schönberg and translated the name to the French Belmont so that it would not sound Jewish. I don't know if this is the family that was originally Sephardic which you are referring to.

              Comment


              • #22
                Molly, you mention a few issues.
                Elhaik looked at autosomal dna rather than Mtdna (your K1a) or Y dna (my J2a). Ashkenazi Mtdna shows mainly Near Eastern and European influences. The same is true of Y dna where the Near Eastern component is even stronger. Unlike Mtdna, Ashkenazi Y dna does show a minor central Asian component.
                Behar has conducted research on various types of dna. His own autosomal dna findings as well as two other prominent studies do not at all support Elhaik's conclusions. As I noted earlier, Elhaik did not study Khazar dna. He used Caucasians as a proxy for Khazars. It is hardly surprising that Caucasians resemble Jews since autosomal research has demonstrated that Caucasians are mainly of Middle Eastern origin.
                I am not sure how you can determine Sephardic origins without a paper record. There are Sephardic dna projects. You can check to see if Y dna lines in your family resemble those of Sephardic males. Your female Mtdna K1a line is more likely Ashkenazi rather than Sephardic.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ursus View Post
                  I would be overjoyed if I could trace all of my lines back to the mid-1600s. A lot of records were destroyed on Reichskristallnacht and for many places they never existed back that far in the first place.

                  You are correct that some (a lot?) of German places allowed Jews to immigrate after the Thirty Jews War in order to help repopulate, but for what it is worth, the only instance on my tree where I know that happened from outside of Germany were Sephardic Jews that came from the Papal territory of Avignon in France.

                  I do agree that some probably came from the east and may have had some Khazar ancestry. The question to me is how much of a factor the Khazars were in Germany and European Jewry as a whole. I suspect that it is a small factor.
                  Ursus, The history of Ashkenazi migration through the last century is a story of great pain and suffering. It is of little comfort that some European rulers belatedly recognized the vital Jewish contribution to their area.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The problem is that I don't have a paper trail- as you well know- many Jewish records are destroyed or missing.

                    My family was very very secretive and quiet about anything to do with their origins that is why I am doing the DNA tests (in addition to my father being adopted) to find out further info on my Jewish family.

                    My MtDNA results are not for the Schoenberg's. They are for the woman that Max Schoenberg married who was probably a Pollack or ha Cohen. I have a possible male cousin who just tested (3rd if we are correct) and we are waiting for his results.

                    I just wondered if there was a population that may show up in my mother's results if she were of Part-Sephardic ancestry. As I said the problem is that her father was Italian/Albanian. I guess I will see what her results show.

                    AB

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
                      The problem is that I don't have a paper trail- as you well know- many Jewish records are destroyed or missing.

                      My family was very very secretive and quiet about anything to do with their origins that is why I am doing the DNA tests (in addition to my father being adopted) to find out further info on my Jewish family.

                      My MtDNA results are not for the Schoenberg's. They are for the woman that Max Schoenberg married who was probably a Pollack or ha Cohen. I have a possible male cousin who just tested (3rd if we are correct) and we are waiting for his results.

                      I just wondered if there was a population that may show up in my mother's results if she were of Part-Sephardic ancestry. As I said the problem is that her father was Italian/Albanian. I guess I will see what her results show.

                      AB
                      Have you tested for Family Finder---Poulation Finder. Your male cousin might also test for the Y dna Geno 2.0 test
                      Last edited by josh w.; 27 January 2013, 01:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                        Ursus, The history of Ashkenazi migration through the last century is a story of great pain and suffering. It is of little comfort that some European rulers belatedly recognized the vital Jewish contribution to their area.
                        I realize that quite well since, although I was born after World War II, my parents and grandparents were lucky to be able to escape Germany in the 1930s.

                        Ironically, due to this I am eligible to acquire German citizenship through my mother since she did not become an American citizen until after 1941 when Germany had revoked the citizenship of Jews. Thus when she became a US citizen she was actually stateless and although she renounced foreign citizenship, she did not have any to renounce. After WW-II Germany would have allowed her to become a citizen again, but she didn't, however, I can still do this based upon her history. My father, on the other hand became a US citizen before 1941 and thus gave it up. One could plead that it was under duress, but either parent (or I think grandparent) would suffice.

                        In any case, I have no intention of doing this, although it might look nice on my wall, and all I can think is "Meine Mutter würde sich im Grab umdrehen" (my mother would roll over in her grave), if I were to do this.

                        Sorry for going further off topic.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Yes if you look at my signature I am roughly 25% Middle Eastern and the rest Western European.

                          My father is adopted but I know that his mother was Norwegian.

                          I just wondered what Sephardic Jews showed up as in PF? If they do at all- meaning other than just European.

                          But this is straying away from the topic.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mollyblum View Post
                            Yes if you look at my signature I am roughly 25% Middle Eastern and the rest Western European.

                            My father is adopted but I know that his mother was Norwegian.

                            I just wondered what Sephardic Jews showed up as in PF? If they do at all- meaning other than just European.

                            But this is straying away from the topic.
                            The French component might suggest a Sephardic background. Geno 2.0 could be more informative.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              As could the tools on Gedmatch and 23andMe's Ancestry Composition. I wouldn't take the French on Population Finder as meaning much. As these tools go, it's way behind a lot of what's out there, perhaps better than Ancestry.com's, but that's about all.

                              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                              The French component might suggest a Sephardic background. Geno 2.0 could be more informative.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Amybeth yes I would look at Gedmatch's admixture tools instead of the Population Finder. Our PF results are very similar, and I know we have a few similar ancestries too.

                                My favorite is Dodecad K7b regular Oracle mode. The first line for me there is spot on for at least two of my ancestries. One from my Dad the Lithuanian, and one from my mother Southern Italian. These two are the ones that my parents identified with the most and these two together show the smallest distance of any of the calculators for me.

                                Of interest to you might be line 6. So you may find the Serphardic in this oracle for you.



                                # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
                                1 57.5% Lithuanians (Behar) + 42.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 0.32
                                2 58.2% Lithuanians (Behar) + 41.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 0.48
                                3 86.9% German (Dodecad) + 13.1% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 0.51
                                4 55.1% Dutch (Dodecad) + 44.9% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 0.55
                                5 53.2% Dutch (Dodecad) + 46.8% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.58
                                6 63.7% Lithuanians (Behar) + 36.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 0.59
                                7 69.1% Polish (Dodecad) + 30.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 0.59
                                8 50.3% Argyll (1000Genomes) + 49.7% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 0.6
                                9 87% German (Dodecad) + 13% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 0.61
                                10 64.8% Polish (Dodecad) + 35.2% Greek (Dodecad) @ 0.65
                                11 51.7% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 48.3% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 0.66
                                12 69.7% Polish (Dodecad) + 30.3% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 0.67
                                13 81.9% Argyll (1000Genomes) + 18.1% Druze (HGDP) @ 0.67
                                14 82.2% Orkney (1000Genomes) + 17.8% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 0.69
                                15 84.6% Dutch (Dodecad) + 15.4% Druze (HGDP) @ 0.7
                                16 57.2% German (Dodecad) + 42.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 0.7
                                17 84.1% Kent (1000Genomes) + 15.9% Armenians (Behar) @ 0.71
                                18 55.7% Lithuanian (Dodecad) + 44.3% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.71
                                19 84.3% Kent (1000Genomes) + 15.7% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 0.72
                                20 84.1% Kent (1000Genomes) + 15.9% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 0.73

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X