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R1a1 - Hindu Brahmins, Slavs and Ashkenazi Levites

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  • R1a1 - Hindu Brahmins, Slavs and Ashkenazi Levites

    I am a Hindu Brahmin from South India (The 'highest' caste in the Hindu system). I belong to the R1a1 haplogroup. The geneographic project traced my origin to Central Asia (Ukraine or thereabouts). I am surprised to see so many Slavs and Ashkenazi Levite folks also to be of the same group. I assume our ancestors were Central Asians who went separate ways and religions. I would be interested in knowing if anybody has more information along this line.

    Is there anyway if we can test whether our maternal lines are also similar??

    Finally about IQ. I read that Ashkenazi Levites have the highest average IQ in the world. It is a given fact that Brahmins have the highest IQ in India (though this group has not be tested on an average basis to compare to worldwide statistics) and Brahmins also do well in academics in India, USA etc. Do you think this is something to do with the R1a1 haplogroup?

  • #2
    Ashkenazi Levite

    Hi, I am very new to the DNA science and just got back my results today for Y DNA.

    My model showed R1b and the nearest ancestor in England, but also had several Ashkenazi and one Ashkenazi Levite in step mutations. I do not know if R1a1 which I ascertain is Eastern Europe/Central Asia is the source of my R1b (I gather not since this shows Western Europe) but being closely related I may have a long distance connection to Ashkenazi or several converts in the tree somewhere.

    As you know the Ashkenazi IQ is on average higher than any other population in the world. Although there might be a genetic link to the higher IQ. I would think a more logical answer is that these small groups that went from Central Asia to India, Russia, Eastern/Western Europe and beyond had to develope a higher IQ for survival.

    My guess is the probable answer is that the inhospitable lands of Central Asia caused many of the original Ashkenazi to have to "think out of the box" in order to survive. As these groups went to other lands they were treated with severe hostility and once again they were forced to "think out of the box" in the so called "civilized world" to survive once more.

    This would cause the IQ of European Jews to be higher as well as there ancestor cousins in many parts of the world.

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    • #3
      R1b and R1a

      Thanks, interesting!

      BTW, the FTDNA site has a chart showing where each haplogroup branched off. R1b didn't arise from R1a, but there was a common ancestor for both - M173.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi
        R1a_M17_India

        We share similar genetic & cultural background(I am an Iyengar Brahmin). One of my friends is a Coorgi from Karnataka (not a brahmin). They are active hunters and eat lot of meat.
        He was confirmed recently as a M17-R1a. Isnt it interesting ?
        -

        Comment


        • #5
          Some Tribals have R1a

          R1a,
          It seems some tribals (especially in AP) have R1a. The explanation seems to be that they got it while in contact with the the so-called Aryans.

          In addition, if your friend is an upper caste (and not a tribal), he can be of the so-called Aryan stock too.

          I wonder when my ancestors migrated to South India

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          • #6
            Well, My family folklore suggests that my ancestors (Brahmins) moved from Bengal to Andhra to Tamil Nadu during the 14 th century AD. This was a period of rampant Islamic expansion in the North. Incidentally, this was a period of the Vaishnavaite Bhakti movement in Bengal. Iyengars are known to be staunch Vaishnavites. I have also found evidence that Bengali Brahmins also belong to the R1a-M17 group. Their family folklore traces their migration from the upper Ganga valley to Bengal sometime in the 7th-8th century AD.
            This migrationary evidence traces the movement. Well, My friend is a Coorgi (classified as tribals by the Indian Govt). Their tribal history suggests that they were a part of Alexander's army who stayed back in India during 300-200 BC. It is interesting to note that Kurgan rhymes with Coorgi !

            Comment


            • #7
              Brahmins and their origins

              Try this link and contact this guy
              http://members.tripod.com/~tanmoy/bengal/races.html

              Dig around his website for good information.(http://members.tripod.com/~tanmoy)

              He too is R1a and a Bengali Brahmin. He is able to trace his clan's origins to 1000 AD!! You can contact him and try maybe a 25 marker or 37 marker match test. Or maybe you and I can try it too.

              I am from Andhra, and my folklore says that Brahmins were invited from Northern India by kings to help with religious things as well as to clear and settle arable land. The name of the area that was was gifted by the king to the particular family became the new surname.

              Modern day Kannauj in UP (previously known as Kanyakabhuj) seems to have been a prestigious Brahmin center till Turks/Arabs/Muslims ransacked it and slaughtered people.

              I am always mistaken for a UP or Bengali Brahmin, my relatives stand out, and I used to wonder why, till I dug up all this research and my DNA type.

              Comment


              • #8
                R1a1

                Hi,
                I just came across this message thread by chance. I do a lot of reading on genetics and haplotypes. If my understanding is correct, R1a1 is found among several ethnic groups including Brahmins, Coorgi's and Lambadis ( of AP ) , and found in a good percentage in many castes ( cutting across different regions ) . Probably the high IQ is not related to this haplotype, as , if that is the case all the above ethnic groups above in India will have a very IQ. Also almost all of the Slavic population will have a very high IQ.

                In case of European Jews, the commonly accepted theory (though not scientifically proven in the formal sense) why they do well in academics is that they have gone through several centuries of natural selection for academic success ( indirectly ) . Jews had to live in a hostile environment, and many professions were restricted to them . This is why other Jewish groups who lived in more liberal regions do not have as high an IQ as the European Jews do.
                In case of India, it is possible that many groups who do well academically (like yours) probably went through some sort of natural selection for better academic activities,( like keeping only academically inclined in the clan and permitting bright individuals from other clans into one’s clan) . If this process goes on for a few centuries, the average IQ will definitely be higher.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lambadis

                  I agree with you on the IQ piece.

                  On the origin of R1a in Lambadis - They were originally from Rajasthan. You might have read that the Gypsies of Europe (Romanys) have been found to have Indian origins. Lambadis are of similar stock. It seems they were displaced en masse from the Rajasthan area during the Muslim invasions from Middle East, enslaved, made to fight for their masters in distant lands, or simply become nomadic to escape.

                  That explanation makes it logical for them to have some R1a, since a group of people with different backgrounds would have been displaced, and later formed a community/tribe, with sufficient bi-directional genetic exchange.

                  I am not sure of the Coorgis, but if they have Greek connections, it would not have been R1a, it would have been some other haplogroup (I think it was J or something, not sure).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think you'll find that dna doesnt respect systems like races humans have developed.i am a totally with irish man from somalia e3b1 millenia ago

                    you should understand the people who came from the east to settle europe were the same people that the askenazis are from. so whats the surprize?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ashkenazi

                      Jim,

                      I guess it is the age old question. Who am I? Where do I come from and Where am I going?

                      DNA studies answer some of those questions but it seems far from being a exact science.

                      One of things that surprised me was just how similar we really all are and how identity is very much a individual choice.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BlackWolf
                        Jim,

                        I guess it is the age old question. Who am I? Where do I come from and Where am I going?

                        DNA studies answer some of those questions but it seems far from being a exact science.

                        One of things that surprised me was just how similar we really all are and how identity is very much a individual choice.

                        Mr. BlackWolf I think i just met an intelligent man.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          R1a1 in Scandinavia (Vikings)

                          R1a1 is rare in West Europe, but for some reason a lot of people in Scandinavia have this haplogroup. It is more commonly found some parts of Eastern Europe.

                          I know that some Jewish groups have this haplogroup, but ironically, in west Europe the R1a1 haplogroup is called the Aryan marker. It indicates Viking ancestry in the British Isles. When found in Jewish persons, it indicates that they have ancestors in Eastern Europe.

                          30% of people in West Norway and many people from Iceland are R1a1. This haplogroup can also be found in some parts of Ireland and Scotland.

                          I am a Norwegian with haplogroup R1a1, and my family is Norwegian on both sides for many generations back.

                          The theory is that the Vikings were R1a1, and their ancestors came from some other part of the world than the rest of Europe.

                          When it comes to IQ, I think that it is dangerous to use DNA to classify one as more intelligent or better than others. We all know about the Second World War.

                          Nevertheless, I did not have any trouble becoming a member of Mensa and do actually have a very high IQ.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by joinge
                            R1a1 is rare in West Europe, but for some reason a lot of people in Scandinavia have this haplogroup. It is more commonly found some parts of Eastern Europe.

                            I know that some Jewish groups have this haplogroup, but ironically, in west Europe the R1a1 haplogroup is called the Aryan marker. It indicates Viking ancestry in the British Isles. When found in Jewish persons, it indicates that they have ancestors in Eastern Europe.

                            30% of people in West Norway and many people from Iceland are R1a1. This haplogroup can also be found in some parts of Ireland and Scotland.

                            I am a Norwegian with haplogroup R1a1, and my family is Norwegian on both sides for many generations back.

                            The theory is that the Vikings were R1a1, and their ancestors came from some other part of the world than the rest of Europe.

                            When it comes to IQ, I think that it is dangerous to use DNA to classify one as more intelligent or better than others. We all know about the Second World War.

                            Nevertheless, I did not have any trouble becoming a member of Mensa and do actually have a very high IQ.
                            to most this a quandry
                            To people like me who believe that the keltoi left assyria and settled europe it isnt. Since they were hebrew [not jewish]
                            george washingtons genealogy in the library of congress states he decends from odin who migrates assyria at the time of the keltoi movement west

                            http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/washington.html
                            http://members.aol.com/washpage/links.html

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Very interesting reading.

                              To Jim Denning:

                              Very interesting reading.

                              I have to read the George Washington and Israel article more thoroughly.
                              It looks very interesting, since it makes a connection between Israelites, Odin and George Washington. (Odin was the "God of Gods", but also referred to as a king in Scandinavian mythology)

                              Comment

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