Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

R1a1 - Hindu Brahmins, Slavs and Ashkenazi Levites

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Kaiser
    replied
    Indian Origin of R1a1 Lineage

    Following is an abstract of a paper (at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/) whose access is still restricted:

    The Autochthonous Origin and a Tribal Link of Indian Brahmins: Evaluation Through Molecular Genetic Markers, Sharma et al

    "The co-existence and associated genetic evidences for the major rival models: i) recent Central Asian introduction of Indian caste system, ii) rank related west Eurasian admixture, iii) South Asian origin for Indian caste communities, and iv) late Pleistocene heritage of tribal and caste populations, leave the question of the origin of caste system in India hazy and obscure..... A peculiar observation of highest frequency (upto 72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* in Brahmins, hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group. The widespread distribution and high frequency across Eurasia and Central Asia of R1a1* as well as scanty representation of its ancestral (R*, R1* and R1a*) and derived lineages across the region has kept the origin of this haplogroup unresolved.

    The analyses of a pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians, bearing R1a1* haplogroup resolved the controversy of origin of R1a1*.

    The conclusion was drawn on the basis of: i) presence of this haplogroup in many of the tribal populations such as, Saharia (present study) and Chenchu tribe in high frequency, ii) the highest ever reported presence of R1a* (ancestral haplogroup of R1a1*) in Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharia tribe, and iii) associated averaged phylogenetic ages of R1a* (~18,478 years) and R1a1* (~13,768 years) in India. The study supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1 lineage and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins."

    Leave a comment:


  • DKF
    replied
    Originally posted by rsychev
    STR typing of ancient DNA extracted from hair shafts of Siberian mummies.
    Amory S, Keyser C, Crube'zy E, Ludes B.


    Andronovo culture (2300–1000 BC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

    yDNA - R1a1
    16-11,14-14-32-25-11-11-13-14-11-10
    (DYS19-385a,b-389I-389II-390-391-392-393-437-438-439) - 2 sample

    mtDNA - T1, U4, U2e, H?, K, U5a1

    Tagar culture (800–200 BC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture

    yDNA - R1a1
    17-11,14-13-31-24-11-11-13-14-11-10
    16-11,14-13-31-24-11-11-13-14-11-10
    16-11,14-14-31-25-11-11-13-14-11-10
    17-11,14-13-31-24-11-12-13-14-11-10
    (DYS19-385a,b-389I-389II-390-391-392-393-437-438-439)

    Tachtyk culture (200 BC–200 AD)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashtyk_culture

    yDNA - R1a1
    17-11,14-13-31-24-11-11-13-14-11-10
    (DYS19-385a,b-389I-389II-390-391-392-393-437-438-439)

    Afanassievo culture (3500–2500 BC)
    yDNA - no data
    mtDNA - N1a, T
    Rsychev:

    I have checked the original article noted above and it only deals with Siberian mummies from the 16th to the 19th Centuries. The article that refers to the Tagar and other cultures is by Bouakaze et al. (2007) in Int J Legal Med, 121:493-499. Here there are no haplotypes given, even in the supplementary material. Did you get this data by writing to the author? Is there another paper - I don't see any mtDNA data.

    DKF.

    Leave a comment:


  • Clochaire
    replied
    Originally posted by J Man
    As for J2a (M410), in India it is more common amongst upper castes: Iyengar, Iyer & Kurumba. In Pakistan J2a is found mostly amongst the Sindhis, Makranis and Baluchis settled along the coastal areas.
    . . . so how much of the association of these haplogroups with "upper castes" is due to the under-representation or under-reporting of "lower castes" in databases?

    Is there a higher or lower level of genetic diversity in caste-bound societies vs. relatively egalitarian societies?

    Does the incidence of "upper caste" haplogroups among individuals reporting as "lower caste" suggest: a.) A higher degree of social mobility than may have previously been credited, vs. b.) Other, perhaps less savoury phenomena (e.g., rape)?

    Just wondering . . .

    Leave a comment:


  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    on R1a1 being intelligentt

    I'm happy to see that my Y-DNA haplogroup is regarded as intelligent, et al. Unfortunately not all of us are all that smart. I, for one, am a bad example for the rest of the exalted R1a1 haplogroup.

    R1a1 & U5b2

    Leave a comment:


  • J Man
    replied
    As for J2a (M410), in India it is more common amongst upper castes: Iyengar, Iyer & Kurumba. In Pakistan J2a is found mostly amongst the Sindhis, Makranis and Baluchis settled along the coastal areas.

    A generalised conclusion for both R1a1 and J2a presence in South Asia would point towards an 'upper class, dominant, invader (R1a1)/mercantile-trader (J2a) people' occupying the upper rungs of a colour-based caste system, which relegates indigenous (darker-skinned) peoples to middle/lower castes.[/QUOTE]



    So you think that the original J2a people in India may have been mercantile traders?

    Leave a comment:


  • rsychev
    replied
    STR typing of ancient DNA extracted from hair shafts of Siberian mummies.
    Amory S, Keyser C, Crube'zy E, Ludes B.


    Andronovo culture (2300–1000 BC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

    yDNA - R1a1
    16-11,14-14-32-25-11-11-13-14-11-10
    (DYS19-385a,b-389I-389II-390-391-392-393-437-438-439) - 2 sample

    mtDNA - T1, U4, U2e, H?, K, U5a1

    Tagar culture (800–200 BC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture

    yDNA - R1a1
    17-11,14-13-31-24-11-11-13-14-11-10
    16-11,14-13-31-24-11-11-13-14-11-10
    16-11,14-14-31-25-11-11-13-14-11-10
    17-11,14-13-31-24-11-12-13-14-11-10
    (DYS19-385a,b-389I-389II-390-391-392-393-437-438-439)

    Tachtyk culture (200 BC–200 AD)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tashtyk_culture

    yDNA - R1a1
    17-11,14-13-31-24-11-11-13-14-11-10
    (DYS19-385a,b-389I-389II-390-391-392-393-437-438-439)

    Afanassievo culture (3500–2500 BC)
    yDNA - no data
    mtDNA - N1a, T

    Leave a comment:


  • Kaiser
    replied
    bob_chasm: The breakdown of R1a1 by various ethno-cultural groups in India and Pakistan is as follows (Sengupta et al, 2005):

    INDIA
    - West Bengal Brahmins (Upper Caste Hindus):72%
    - Konkanasth Brahmins (Upper Caste Hindus): 63%
    - Muslims (No caste affinities): 58%
    - Tanti (Low Caste Hindus): 41%
    - Uttar Pradesh (UP) Brahmins (Upper Caste Hindus): 36%
    - Rajput (Upper Caste Hindus): 31%

    PAKISTAN
    - Sindhi: 52%
    - Pathan: 40%
    - Baluchi: 28%

    For Pakistan, another study (Qamar et al, 2002) has the following breakdown for R1a1:
    - Kashmiri (Pakistani portion):58%
    - Punjabi: 51%
    - Pathan: 49%
    - Sindhi: 49%
    - Balti (Baltistan - Northern Areas): 46%

    As for J2a (M410), in India it is more common amongst upper castes: Iyengar, Iyer & Kurumba. In Pakistan J2a is found mostly amongst the Sindhis, Makranis and Baluchis settled along the coastal areas.

    A generalised conclusion for both R1a1 and J2a presence in South Asia would point towards an 'upper class, dominant, invader (R1a1)/mercantile-trader (J2a) people' occupying the upper rungs of a colour-based caste system, which relegates indigenous (darker-skinned) peoples to middle/lower castes.
    Last edited by Kaiser; 6th June 2007, 10:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • katiecarol
    replied
    The Arabian traveller, Ibn Fadlan, who visited Volga Bulgaria in 922, described the Rus (Rusiyyah) in the terms strongly suggestive of the Norsemen,but I agree with you that we do not know which group they were from.But they have since been associated with the swedes/vikings [ F. Donald Logan (The Vikings in History, cit. Montgomery, p. 24), "in 839, the Rus' were Swedes. In 1043, the Rus' were Slavs.]

    You are correct about the use of "Saqaliba" (Arabic: صقالبة) but it does refer overwhelming to slavic women, but also slaves in the medieval Arab world and other types of people the source was right in calling them slave-girls instead in other translations of that text they are simply called slavs.
    Last edited by katiecarol; 6th June 2007, 09:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • vraatyah
    replied
    Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
    At first glance, looks like the majority of my ancestors migrated from the southern russian region to India, male and female!
    What's your HVS sequence? First, you may have close matches in India and Iran, no need in "Aryans" from Russia.

    Leave a comment:


  • bob_chasm
    replied
    Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
    I am a Hindu Brahmin from South India (The 'highest' caste in the Hindu system). I belong to the R1a1 haplogroup. The geneographic project traced my origin to Central Asia (Ukraine or thereabouts). I am surprised to see so many Slavs and Ashkenazi Levite folks also to be of the same group. I assume our ancestors were Central Asians who went separate ways and religions. I would be interested in knowing if anybody has more information along this line.

    Is there anyway if we can test whether our maternal lines are also similar??

    Finally about IQ. I read that Ashkenazi Levites have the highest average IQ in the world. It is a given fact that Brahmins have the highest IQ in India (though this group has not be tested on an average basis to compare to worldwide statistics) and Brahmins also do well in academics in India, USA etc. Do you think this is something to do with the R1a1 haplogroup?
    Hi R1a_m17_India: It was my understanding that R1a marker was most common among Kashmiris, UP Muslims of India and Pathans of Pakistan. I think, in Europe, it is common among populations of Poland and Eastern European countries. In addition, it is my understanding that this marker is not limited to upper caste and non tribals of India. I think it was the J2a sublcade that was exclusive to upper caste Hindus. Coincidentally, J2a is also common among and Ashkenazi Jews and non Jewish Europeans.

    regards,

    bob

    Leave a comment:


  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by katiecarol
    http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm

    I think it explains why eastern europeans/slavs and some scandinavians share
    R1a.
    No, it does not, as your own source makes clear.

    First, your source most certainly does not equate slave girls with Slavs. It is arguably true that in western or southern Europe, the word 'slave' came from 'Slav', but that has nothing to do with Arabic. The source you cite uses the term 'slave-girl', and you should have left it thus without adding an incorrect editorial comment.

    Second, your source clearly says:
    ---
    I am not convinced that by Rūs/Rūsiyyah our text means either the Vikings or the Russians specifically.
    ---

    Ironically, his own reference to 'Russians' is anachronistic--a more correct term would be 'eastern Slav'.

    Third, even your postulated relations between Viking warriors and Slavic slave girls would not explain the R1a1 in Scandinavia, which remains anomalous. Rather, it could explain the I1a in Ukraine.

    Your source approvingly quotes Dolukhanov:
    ---
    The Varangians were rapidly incorporated into the Slav élite, acquiring Slavic names, language and habits, and losing the remains of their Scandinavian identity.
    ---

    This would indeed be a reasonable explanation for any Scandinavian-looking I1a we might find in Ukraine.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 5th June 2007, 12:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kaiser
    replied
    Originally posted by R1a_M17_India
    I just received my mtDNA results, and was curious to understand what kind of mtDNA haplogroups go well with certain Y haplogroups across the world.
    Invading or migrating peoples, if technologically more advanced (use of horse, iron, etc), are bound to have social and cultural dominance over locals. This prowess of the 'outsiders' also manifests itself in the mating field, whereby outside males (Alpha males?) take local women at the expense of local males. The local women also find this upward social mobility quite to their benefit. With this short preamble, let us look at the mtDNA composition versus Y-DNA composition of South Asia at large.

    R1a1 is the only significant Eurasian Y-DNA Haplogroup in India with an incidence of 16% in India, rising to 25% in Pakistan. Correspondingly, Eurasian mtDNA Haplogroups do not reach anywhere close to two-figure incidence except in Indian Punjab (18%) whilst in Pakistan, on the whole there is a greater representation of these (as high as 50%, but generally around 35-40%). The Indian composition of Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups includes U1, U4, U5, HV, T, J, N1, X while that of Pakistan inludes all of the preceding, plus W and H.

    If one were to go by the 'birds of a feather flock together' dictum, then R1a1 males would possibly choose Eurasian females in general (though a haplogroup-wise distribution begs a detailed study for the time being). As for the dominant 'invaders' prefering local women, there was a vast 'menu' to choose from; this would include M*, M2, M3, M5, U2i, U7, R*.

    From the point of view of a sociological study, one would much rather see a 'paired' survey of mates ie, Y-DNA and corresponding mtDNA but unfortunately, such studies have, somehow, not found favour with population geneticists. On a personal note, I find my South Asian R2 patriline linked up with a rare Anatolian-Caucasaus J2 matriline quite intriguing. Did R2 males pass by Anatolia-Caucasus region some time in the ancient past? Or, did J2 women, during the Neolithic expansion, end up in what is now Pakistan and got chosen/taken by local males? A 'paired' study of mates could help, I guess.

    Leave a comment:


  • katiecarol
    replied
    You might be interested in early accounts of the rus[vikings] and slavs:

    I saw the Rūsiyyah when they had arrived on their trading expedition[10] and had disembarked at the River Ātil.[11] I have never seen more perfect physiques than theirs—they are like palm trees,[12] are fair and reddish,[13] and do not wear the qurṭaq or the caftan. The man wears a cloak with which he covers one half of his body, leaving one of his arms uncovered.[14] Every one of [6] them carries an axe,[15] a sword and a dagger.

    They are the filthiest of all Allāh’s creatures: they do not clean themselves after excreting or urinating or wash themselves when in a state of ritual impurity (i.e., after coitus) and do not <even> wash their hands after food.[23] [8] Indeed they are like asses that roam <in the fields>.

    They arrive from their territory (min baladi-him) and moor their boats by the Ātil (a large river), building on its banks large wooden houses.[24] They [9] gather in the one house in their tens and twenties, sometimes more, sometimes less. Each of them has a couch on which he sits. They are accompanied by beautiful slave girls[slavs] for trading. One man will have intercourse with his slave-girl [slavs] while his companion looks on. Sometimes a group of them comes together to do this, each in front of the other. Sometimes indeed the merchant will come in to buy a slave-girl from one of them and he will chance upon him having intercourse with her, but <the Rūs> will not leave her alone until he has satisfied his urge. They cannot, of course, avoid washing their faces and their heads each day, which they do with the filthiest and most polluted water imaginable. I shall explain. Every day the slave-girl arrives in the morning with a large basin containing water, which she hands to her owner. He washes his hands and his face and his hair in the water, then he dips his comb in the water and brushes his hair, blows his nose and spits in the basin. There is no filthy impurity which he will not do in this water. When he no longer requires it, the slave-girl takes the basin to the man beside him and he goes through the same routine as his friend. She continues to carry it from one man to the next until she has gone round everyone in the house, with each of them blowing his nose and spitting, washing his face and hair in the basin.[25]


    http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/classes/pritsak.html
    http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm

    I think it explains why eastern europeans/slavs and some scandinavians share
    R1a.

    Also the Kurgan Woman of the Pazryrk [Ice maiden]
    who was found in 1993 wearing "indian" silk and blue tatoos similar to those worn by the Celts/Rus/Sembians/Ancient prussians etc they assert from her wearing "wild indian silk" that kurgan groups were trading in India.

    http://www.geocities.com/mary_lynn_e...arch-Paper.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    R1a1 Scandinavia/UK

    Have recently SNP tested with FTDNA and am confirmed R1a1. I live in England. My closest haplotype matches are with Scandinavians, Icelandic, and some US people who do not know which country their immigrant ancestors came from. The very few English close matches are probably of Viking or Scottish Norse origin. My own paternal ancestry is unknown before 1868 and my surname is not matched to that ancestry.

    It would be interesting to know at what stage in pre-history the common ancestors of Indian and East European/Scandinavian R1a's can be found. According to most accounts this is with the Kurgan people of the Russian Steppes. I match 11/12 with a Khan from Pakistan. Seems I am closer to some modern Indians than to many of the R1b's around me here in the UK.
    Obviously my autosomal DNA will show descent from others on the various maternal lines who probably had R1b male parents. The big question is if there was a more recent migration of R1a carriers from the Steppes to Sweden say in the last 1500 years.

    This is my first post to the forum. Hello to all!

    Pat

    Leave a comment:


  • R1a_M17_India
    replied
    Correlation between Y and mtDNA

    I just received my mtDNA results, and was curious to understand what kind of mtDNA haplogroups go well with certain Y haplogroups across the world.

    At first glance, looks like the majority of my ancestors migrated from the southern russian region to India, male and female! I would love to cross check this against some studies to understand whether certain Y and mtDNA groups migrated together, not just for my particular combination but across the world in general.

    Any suggestions about some studies that I can refer to?

    Thanks in advance

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X